D&D (2024) New stealth rules.

[Reynard]

I think the mistake is to rely on establishing conditions rather than to simply determine whether a character can do a thing unnoticed.

 

[mellored]

So...

8 dex padin in full plate, carrying a ladder, walks around a corner, and rolls stealth until he eventually beats 15. Then can dash into the castle.

Might take a few minutes, but he'll get there.

Note that the only thing Invisible gives you unconditionally is advantage on Initiative checks. The other two benefits only occur unless "the creature can somehow see you".

"You are not affected by anything that requires the target to be seen"

Which would include breaking stealth.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

Wow, right you are. Why the hell is the condition even called “invisible” if being seen negates its benefits? Being impossible to see (except with magic) should be the primary if not sole benefit of being invisible. This confusion could have easily been avoided by just changing the condition’s name to “hidden.”

I wonder if the text for the invisibility spell even explicitly makes it so you can't be seen

 

[Micah Sweet]

Treating stealth as a static DC invisibility does work well enough for using it in combat. Now, the believability problems arise when you apply the same rules outside of combat, and that's not what WotC is here for, why aren't you in combat.

Seriously. WotC's interest in mechanics at all seems to go way down once everyone's out of initiative.

 

[SpellObjectEnthusiast]

WotC's interest in mechanics at all seems to go way down once everyone's out of initiative.

I didn't have "d&d2024 would de-emphasize the Exploration Pillar even harder than 5e does" on my bingo card. And yet, here we are.

 

[MarkB]

"You are not affected by anything that requires the target to be seen"

Which would include breaking stealth.

That's certainly one interpretation.

 

[Mistwell]

Anyways the real takeaway here is that WOTC has completely failed to create rules text for stealth that are easily understood and consistently interpreted the same way, despite having a decade to do so.

You're being too generous. This is a consistent problem going back to 1999 when they wrote the 3e rules, continuing with the 3.5e, 4e, and 4e Revised rules as well. So, 25 years to fix this problem

 

[MarkB]

I do want to see the text of the Perception skill before declaring these rules a total loss, but currently my hopes are not high.

 

[Mistwell]

Where does it say that?

And wouldn't that make the invisibility spell pretty pointless?

It doesn't. I you read further, I switched to "OK now I am unsure". And the more I read, the more I think you remain with the Invisible condition until something beats your stealth check or you attack or make a sound above a whisper. BUT the text still says or the enemy "finds you" which, I think, might be left up to DM interpretation with rules in the DMG. But I don't know.

 

[Charlaquin]

So...

8 dex padin in full plate, carrying a ladder, walks around a corner, and rolls stealth until he eventually beats 15. Then can dash into the castle.

Might take a few minutes, but he'll get there.

Yes, but any creatures with passive perception above his check result will spot him automatically, and if he doesn’t take care to remain out of line of sight, creatures are likely to see him and make active checks to try to end his “invisible” condition.

"You are not affected by anything that requires the target to be seen"

You left off the rest of that sentence: “unless the effect’s creator can somehow see you.” If the Paladin is not under the effects of something like the invisibility spell, the effect’s creator will easily be able to see him, so he won’t have this benefit.

Basically, the heavily armored Paladin who repeatedly makes Stealth checks until he beats a 15 and then (quietly) moves into the heavily guarded castle without any other precautions will have advantage on initiative checks until he makes a sound louder than a whisper, makes an attack, casts a spell, comes within line of sight of a creature with higher passive perception than his successful stealth check, or any creature with a lower passive perception than that sees him and uses their action to make a perception check, and gets a result higher than the paladin’s successful stealth roll. Also, if the Paladin takes care to avoid being seen, he can attack a target that doesn’t see him with advantage (though doing so will remove the other benefits of being hidden).