D&D 5E Should the Paladin be changed into a more generic half-caster magic knight?

[DEFCON 1]

My players and I do. All the time. Every campaign I've been involved in in the last several years has included at least one non-WotC class (except the PH only game I play in with my kids).

Well, I know you do, but you also are not one of the people always complaining that WotC doesn't add more classes, LOL! So my comments were aiming past you to the crowd further in back.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I think the pros and cons of having those is an interesting discussion. I don't know that there is any debate that they have both brought in new players and changed expectations of their fans. Whether it was a net positive or not, I don't know.

I'm of the belief that more players is always a net positive. Because that way there are more chances to find people willing to play whatever fracked-up version of D&D or any RPG each person thinks they need to play to be happy, heh heh.

 

[DinoInDisguise]

I'm of the belief that more players is always a net positive. Because that way there are more chances to find people willing to play whatever fracked-up version of D&D or any RPG each person thinks they need to play to be happy, heh heh.

I agree with you. The enormous player base is 5e's greatest asset.

I'm going to get yelled at for this. But I tend to think the move towards cooperative storytelling, and the more power fantasy feel, was a huge boon for the hobby. Discarding the overly complex and messy rules of 3e and 3.5, moving away from the video game aspects of 4e, and ditching the punishing nature of the older editions all greatly expanded the accessability of the game and by extension the hobby. This benefits every other publisher from Paizo and Kobold Press on down, as some small percentage of 5e players move on to those other products over time.

People who wish 5e to fail are actively wishing for the worse for all of us, regardless of what system we play. 5e's march towards mass appeal may not result in changes we like, but we should cheer it on as we all benefit from it's continued success and future growth.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I agree with you. The enormous player base is 5e's greatest asset.

I'm going to get yelled at for this. But I tend to think the move towards cooperative storytelling, and the more power fantasy feel, was a huge boon for the hobby. Discarding the overly complex and messy rules of 3e and 3.5, moving away from the video game aspects of 4e, and ditching the punishing nature of the older editions all greatly expanded the accessability of the game and by extension the hobby. This benefits every other publisher from Paizo and Kobold Press on down, as some small percentage of 5e players move on to those other products over time.

People who wish 5e to fail are actively wishing for the worse for all of us, regardless of what system we play. 5e's march towards mass appeal may not result in changes we like, but we should cheer it on as we all benefit from it's continued success and future growth.

Unless that march to mass appeal normalizes changes you don't like, leading to a smaller and smaller piece of the pie for whatever non-current edition of WotC D&D game you prefer. I fail to see why I or anyone else not in WotC's pocket should cheer that on.

 

[DinoInDisguise]

Unless that march to mass appeal normalizes changes you don't like, leading to a smaller and smaller piece of the pie for whatever non-current edition of WotC D&D game you prefer. I fail to see why I or anyone else not in WotC's pocket should cheer that on.

Simply put, there is a saying that goes something like; "a rising tide lifts all boats."

We know that 5e is the only system, and Hasbro the only publisher, with the ability to reach a mass market through advertising and other mass media. People on this forum use it as an excuse for 5e being both bad and popular at the same time. That argument is nonsensical given 5e's player retention but that's a different conversation.

We also know that many, if not almost all, players that enter the hobby do so through D&D. Some will enter through Pathfinder home games, but given the relatively tiny player base we can assume that is a very small percentage. Same for Call of Cthulhu and it's ilk. Plus we know that the hobby's growth over the last 10 years came, mostly, from 5e.

It is only reasonable to believe that the growth seen industry wide, outside of D&D, over the last few years, in sales of Pathfinder books and such, is from ex-5e players who choose to move on to another system. This happened in an accelerated fashion during the OGL debacle. You may recall Pathfinder selling out of months worth of supply in days. This was, according to Hasbro shareholder calls, a tiny percentage of 5e's player base.

Others have said it before. Without a successful 5e, this hobby shrinks back to it's niche roots and the player base as a whole shrinks dramatically. This would mean a great reduction in the number of viable publishers and a great reduction at play opportunities for those without a current group. It is very hard to argue those are net positives for the hobby outside of a very twisted and very narcissistic view of things.

Every system and every publisher benefits from 5e's success, and every player should hope the growth of the hobby continues. That growth is, at this point, almost entirely reliant on 5e. So hate it all you will, but the hobby needs 5e to succeed.


EDIT: The reason we know the growth came from 5e is that no other publisher saw the huge spike in popularity. And since no other publisher had the player numbers to lose to 5e through attrition, we know those players started with 5e.

 

[Micah Sweet]

All that tells me is that you've convinced yourself that everyone should be supporting WotC no matter what they do, or no matter what games they enjoy, because WotC owns 5e and only 5e matters. I'm sorry but I'm just not convinced.

 

[Mind of tempest]

Well, I know you do, but you also are not one of the people always complaining that WotC doesn't add more classes, LOL! So my comments were aiming past you to the crowd further in back.

wait so what do you think they should make then as apart from rereleasing all of 5e for 5.5e I do not see much they can do that will get people excited.

I agree with you. The enormous player base is 5e's greatest asset.

I'm going to get yelled at for this. But I tend to think the move towards cooperative storytelling, and the more power fantasy feel, was a huge boon for the hobby. Discarding the overly complex and messy rules of 3e and 3.5, moving away from the video game aspects of 4e, and ditching the punishing nature of the older editions all greatly expanded the accessability of the game and by extension the hobby. This benefits every other publisher from Paizo and Kobold Press on down, as some small percentage of 5e players move on to those other products over time.

People who wish 5e to fail are actively wishing for the worse for all of us, regardless of what system we play. 5e's march towards mass appeal may not result in changes we like, but we should cheer it on as we all benefit from it's continued success and future growth.

I do find that it is more not designed to support what people who want coop storytelling, would need a far less punishing stat system, more out-of-combat compatibilities for all classes and a decent skill system just not a hypercomplex one.

 

[Shardstone]

So anyone wanna see the arcane half caster I made months ago after I abandoned the ideas in the op?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

(Edit) Should the Paladin become a generic magic knight? No.

We should get a separate class for that function. An actual magic knight. One might say a mage who uses swords, even.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

So anyone wanna see the arcane half caster I made months ago after I abandoned the ideas in the op?

Yes! I would love to see this. My "no" above was only in reply to the thread title.