D&D General Let He Who Is Without Sin Cast the First Magic Missile: Why Gygax Still Matters to Me

[EzekielRaiden]

D&D became the big game, not eg Traveller. That one was sci-fi and one was not might have something to do with it too.

There are plenty of games if you want something other than medieval fantasy, I don’t think trying to make D&D something other than that stands a chance. If you do not want that, you are not playing D&D already and those that do play D&D will fight you over turning it into something they do not want

You misunderstand me. I don't necessarily want not-medieval.

I want something that is not, as I said, faux-medieval pseudo-Tolkienesque schizotech humanocentric Dung Ages settings with Maximized Fantasy Racism. Because that's what we get. Every. Goddamn. Time. And it is so tiring.

"Medieval" also includes the Islamic Golden Age. "Medieval" also includes feudal Japan, and the Eastern Roman Empire, and Imperial China, and the empire of Angkor, and the Sultanates of India. Stretch the boundaries just a little and you can get early Renaissance or late Antiquity. There's so much more we COULD do, just even in that one particular slice of history--but it never happens.

 

[TiQuinn]

makes one wonder why he wrote them like that in the first place

I think because he was seeing lots of other house rules and rules from competitors being published and he wanted to get something out that had a very authoritative tone to establish a bit of a pecking order, and to also have a bit of a kitchen sink, completist approach.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

And as far as player vs DM mentality, I think he saw that as a challenge, rather than the DM being an equal at the table. I wish I had a link to the story of the golden golem under Castle Zagyg(?) that no player was ever able to catch. No matter what they tried the statue of gold and priceless gems would find a way around it - too strong to be netted, too fast to be meleed, they'd always just see it off in the distance etc.

THE GOLDEN WARRIOR

Gary could often be fiendish. We all hated getting cursed items mixed in with the other treasures. However, there was nothing in the entire Greyhawk dungeon as insidious as the Golden Warrior. The upper levels of Gary's dungeon would get explored and emptied of goodies. After a bit there would be new and more deadly dangers to face there. However, if we wanted to get to the lower levels, we had to walk through those upper ones. One day we are turning a corner and a warrior all in gold runs past up and we are surprised. He shot at it and cast some spells, but he didn't stop it from running. It was an unusual sight and we all took it as a challenge. Every other adventure we would walk those pillaged halls and suddenly the gold warrior would run past us. We managed to hit it with our magical weapons; we set traps for it that the being bullied its way through; eventually we wet up elaborate traps with ballista, nets, and spells all to no avail. Eventually, we had to give up. The act of trapping this fast moving pile of gold was taking a lot of time and resources. After that, whenever the golden warrior appears we waved it good day.

Source.

 

[Myrdin Potter]

I think because he was seeing lots of other house rules and rules from competitors being published and he wanted to get something out that had a very authoritative tone to establish a bit of a pecking order, and to also have a bit of a kitchen sink, completist approach.

Gygax actually directly addressed that in the AD&D rules. The summary being that the books were the definitive rules.

 

[TiQuinn]

Gygax actually directly addressed that in the AD&D rules. The summary being that the books were the definitive rules.

Yes but therein lies the problem. Gygax wasn’t always above board with his statements.

 

[mamba]

I want something that is not, as I said, faux-medieval pseudo-Tolkienesque schizotech humanocentric Dung Ages settings with Maximized Fantasy Racism. Because that's what we get. Every. Goddamn. Time.

and that is baked into the D&D rules or a matter of the setting you use with them?

Don’t really know it, but Radiant Citadel supposedly is not that. Not sure SpellJammer and Planescape fit that either. And that is just D&D, there must be other games with their own settings that stray from that as well.

If your complaint is that they exist but no one is playing them, then maybe people just are not that interested in something else, at some point it cannot all just be the fault of WotC’s marketing dominance.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

and that is baked into the D&D rules or a matter of the setting you use with them?

Don’t really know it, but Radiant Citadel supposedly is not that. Not sure SpellJammer and Planescape fit that either. And that is just D&D, there must be other games with their own settings that stray from that as well.

If your complaint is that they exist but no one is playing them, then maybe people just are not that interested in something else, at some point it cannot all just be the fault of WotC’s marketing dominance.

Is it marketing dominance when they almost never publish anything that isn't like that? Planescape absolutely is (it just has an extra layer of grunge/dungeon-punk), and they didn't publish anything for Spelljammer until literally 2022.

More my issue, though, is the endless waves of DMs enforcing such things on their tables...over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and over...and expecting the game rules to thoroughly support them and never support anything else.

And yes, before you ask, a significant part of what went into the (Dungeon World) game I run was not being like that. So if your response is "be the change you want to see," I'm already doing that. It has not, in my experience, made any impact. Indeed, with all the ridiculous pushback from an extremely vocal minority ("Disneyfication," if you recall that absolute debacle of a thread), is it any wonder I have this opinion now? The moment anything gets published that isn't that very specific thing, the minority that is no longer being personally catered to comes out in force--again, because they know it works, because their outrage can drown out nearly anyone else.

 

[mamba]

s it marketing dominance when they almost never publish anything that isn't like that?

no, it would be that if you said that the games you like never find an audience because D&D is so dominant

If D&D does it then I assume they do so because they believe that is where the market is

And yes, before you ask, a significant part of what went into the (Dungeon World) game I run was not being like that. So if your response is "be the change you want to see," I'm already doing that. It has not, in my experience, made any impact.

wasn’t where I was heading with this. I assume it is easier for people to relate to things that are familiar, or in other words not too fantastic and rather a fantasy middle ages

Indeed, with all the ridiculous pushback from an extremely vocal minority ("Disneyfication," if you recall that absolute debacle of a thread), is it any wonder I have this opinion now?

do not recall that thread, how do you know who is the minority and who the majority? Maybe your taste just differs from the majority, nothing wrong with that

 

[Myrdin Potter]

You misunderstand me. I don't necessarily want not-medieval.

I want something that is not, as I said, faux-medieval pseudo-Tolkienesque schizotech humanocentric Dung Ages settings with Maximized Fantasy Racism. Because that's what we get. Every. Goddamn. Time. And it is so tiring.

"Medieval" also includes the Islamic Golden Age. "Medieval" also includes feudal Japan, and the Eastern Roman Empire, and Imperial China, and the empire of Angkor, and the Sultanates of India. Stretch the boundaries just a little and you can get early Renaissance or late Antiquity. There's so much more we COULD do, just even in that one particular slice of history--but it never happens.

Then don’t play D&D? I have shelves of non-D&D games. When I started I went from playing 0e (2 sessions) to running Holmes back to AD&D but we switched to Runequest (old style the I was the GM and bought it and ran it so my group played it).

There have been non-D&D games for decades and SF and Victorian and other choices for 40+ years. Play them?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

And yes, before you ask, a significant part of what went into the (Dungeon World) game I run was not being like that. So if your response is "be the change you want to see," I'm already doing that. It has not, in my experience, made any impact.

That's fine! The only impact you need is what happens at your table, not with random internet people.

I like to drive stick shift. I can articulate why it is a better driving experience and why more people should do it. But I am comfortable understanding that my opinion is the minority opinion, and that the vast majority of people will be driving their automatic pick 'em up trucks. And that's okay! Because they are doing what works for them, and I am doing what works for me.