D&D Dungeon Master’s Guide (2024)

D&D (2024) D&D Dungeon Master’s Guide (2024)

I didn't specific refute your points because it being an unrealistic expectation from humanity is IMO refutation enough, even if in general I agree. I also didn't say never, I said not always.
What you said was: It is not always possible for people to come to a compromise. That means there are times when it is impossible for people to come to a compromise: such people cannot ever compromise, no matter what. Those two statements are precisely and exactly the same. I am saying that compromise is always possible. You are saying that, for some people, compromise is never possible.

And many people compromise on those important things because they feel what they're getting is more important than what they're giving up, and even then one could argue whether or not said compromise is worth it in every situation. Not necessarily the case with "pretend elfgames" (I really hate that phrase). Moving on from something that won't be fun enough for you when that is the primary stake is, IME, pretty common, and not acting in bad faith from my point of view.
I used the phrase specifically to indicate exactly how minor and trivial these alleged utterly unresolvable disagreements are.

Why people choose to compromise is not, in my opinion, particularly relevant. A real compromise--meaning, something where folks figure out a solution mutually acceptable to all parties, not "well I guess I'll just suck it up and do something I hate"--is essentially always possible so long as everyone is participating in good faith, and if it is not possible, it is essentially always because at least one person is not participating in good faith.
 
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Moving on.... The rules forcing the DM to personally act as the bad guy to finish a rule or subsystem an endemic pattern through section after section of the rules & not limited to monsters or encounter related stuff.

The trouble there is it matters to a critical degree where & how the half baked gaps fall in a ruleset. I'll use one of what is possibly the most illustrative & glaring examples in 5e to demonstrate, encumbrance specifically.
I agree, but only in the sense that allowing "half-baked gaps" in the first place is a problem.

If you're going to have rules, the rules should be good and well-tested. That is what is actually empowering to DMs. It is not what "DM Empowerment" has been loudly-and-proudly proclaimed to be for the last decade-plus. The boosters of "Rulings not rules" and "DM Empowerment" (particularly those who have nothing but venom for so-called "player entitlement") have advocated for designers not caring that there are major

If you're not going to have rules for something, then actually embrace that. Tell the DMs that. 4e did this. 13th Age did this. Dungeon World did this. Good, well-made games do this. 5e does not.

See above or pick a different subsystem like the yoyo death & dying clownshow the whole system is designed around. 2014 took steps to twist the system into a defensive thicket around the yoyo to ensure that a break there will require significant retooling of things. The new PHB adjusts one of the thorns in that thicket by giving players bigger heals that could theoretically support monsters that are tougher in more ways than just how many hp they have & better support tearing out the yoyo without it feeling like playing tag with a three phase power cable... but absent any indication to the contrary from wotc it could also be doubling down on the yoyo. The new DMG could have alternative death & dying rules that take a mallet to the yoyo... but once again we are back to the GM forcing a variant/optional rule that makes players feel nerfed & now when Bob suffers a reckless & completely avoidable PC death the blame is easy to shift exclusively to the fact that GM:Alice forced the group to use that yoyo-free variant.
Being perfectly honest, I don't understand what you're saying here--not on the detail level. I get that the overall point is that the design is both binary and sloppy, and this binary-and-sloppy pattern leads to problems. But given you have said that the details matter here, I'm pretty confident I'm just missing something because...I don't understand what phrases like "defensive thicket" and "the yoyo".

That said, from what I can glean, I agree with your points here. WotC messed up by making in-combat healing so difficult (something done in part because it was how 4e did things). They messed up by making it so death is either difficult to inflict, or so easily inflicted that it is difficult or even impossible to distinguish "player made a foolish choice and suffered the consequences", "it was always a crapshoot and you never really had any way of changing that", and "GM played sillybuggers and now your character is dead."

It shames them like so: Well if only GM:Alice used the default yoyo rules Bob's PC wouldn't be dead & if only she accepted that encumbrance is unfun nobody would have needed to watch Bob look up & calculate everything he was carrying to find out that he was many hundreds of pounds beyond his capacity just so he could shrug & roll their eyes while throwing some HeavyStuff on someone like the wizard & rogue to completely ignore the problem while changing nothing of interest thanks to linear growth of strength to encumbrance capacity... Obviously Alice should have just used the default guidelines instead of making tougher monnters changing how death works & forcing us to watch bob calculate his encumbrance for the very first time.
This isn't the text of the rules though, so I don't see how it is the rulebook shaming the DM. Instead, the issue is that, because the rules are binary and sloppily-made, the DM gets frustrated by using the default rules (because they don't really offer much challenge), but the players get frustrated because switching the binary midway through the game (IMO quite rightly) feels like "I am altering the deal...pray I do not alter it any further."

But, apart from that, I don't see how this is applicable because it is referring to 5e, when Micah was referring to Dungeon World. I still don't understand how DW is doing this, nor what portion of the text is doing it. DW plays with its cards face up. It makes very clear what the rules are for and why, and explains why changing them can have vast and sweeping negative effects on the game. If you don't like the rules, that simply means it's not the kind of game you should run, simple as. That's not "shaming" and calling it so is still something bizarre and confusing to me.

All of that is true as well, @EzekielRaiden , although I was thinking about PbtA when I wrote about shame, there are definitely parts of WotC 5e that evoke similar things.
See above.
 


I don't know what this means. All RPGing has a structure of play, and a set of associated rules and procedures. AW sets out a different one from (say) AD&D, but I don't see how it is more "insistent".
I would. The procedures of play are very structured in PBtA games I know about, and the GM is functionally disallowed from changing them or you're not following the spirit of the game. That's never been the attitude in D&D in all the decades I've played it, not how I and my players played it (except maybe 4e. That game was pretty ironclad about its rules too).
 

really, no friendship or marriage ever ends due to some fallout?
Did I say it NEVER happens? No. I said that if everyone is participating in good faith, a compromise is always possible, to which I was told that there MUST, always, be someone who calls the shots, someone who makes the final decision. This was not a "well some of the time this thing is needed." It was an always thing.

Why don't marriages have dungeon master equivalents? Why don't friendships have dungeon master equivalents? How can people POSSIBLY resolve disagreements without a single person always calling the shots that everyone else must bow to forever and ever?!?!

I see no reason why a player has to insist on his way rather than be able to compromise with the DM on something they both can live with, and if for some reason the DM cannot compromise and insists on their position because it is so important to them, heck, then find something that works with that position.
But then it must in fact ACTUALLY go both ways. That's the problem I have with this rebuttal. It doesn't actually go both ways. It instead means, "Okay, so now we go back to players being absolutely subservient to DMs, or being summarily kicked out."

Quite frankly, if no compromise can be found, I am not sure why the DM is more at fault than the player for that, if anything it is the reverse to me. Maybe there are some tyrant DMs out there, but I am sure I find plenty of other reasons I would not want to play with them and no compromise will be enough if we keep constantly butting heads to even get there
Because the "I CALL THE SHOTS HERE" DM is the one declaring they deserve massive power. Someone declaring that they get to call the shots means they'd better be ready to take the blame for something going wrong, don't you think? And if they aren't ready to take responsibility, they'd better not be declaring that they have absolute power. (And yes, I really do mean "absolute power," because multiple users on this very form have insisted on that terminology, despite my extensive efforts to talk them out of it.)
 

I would. The procedures of play are very structured in PBtA games I know about, and the GM is functionally disallowed from changing them or you're not following the spirit of the game. That's never been the attitude in D&D in all the decades I've played it, not how I and my players played it (except maybe 4e. That game was pretty ironclad about its rules too).
Then you haven't been paying attention. D&D was "insistent" about how you play it from the very beginning. Or do I need to remind you of Gygax's particular way of expressing the necessity of strict timekeeping?

Every version of D&D has been "insistent" about numerous aspects of play. Each one has often differed on which specific aspects were insisted upon. But they've always been there. Even in 5e.
 



Then you haven't been paying attention. D&D was "insistent" about how you play it from the very beginning. Or do I need to remind you of Gygax's particular way of expressing the necessity of strict timekeeping?

Every version of D&D has been "insistent" about numerous aspects of play. Each one has often differed on which specific aspects were insisted upon. But they've always been there. Even in 5e.
Gary himself was legendarily inconsistent on how strictly one must follow the official rules, so I count that as a wash. And I just don't see what you're talking about outside of 4e.
 


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