D&D (2024) D&D Dungeon Master’s Guide (2024)

[TiQuinn]

The GM designs the dungeon. The players explore and loot the dungeon. The GM adjudicates their efforts in accordance with the rules of the game.

This is not the same as the GM deciding.

There is no difference between that and a DM designing a story based game and players deciding which story elements they engage with.

 

[pemerton]

Okay. You see a distinction that I don’t then.

I guess this makes me wonder how much experience you have with non-GM-driven play (these days the best-known RPGs in that mode is probably either Apocalypse World or Blades in the Dark; my favourites, though, are Burning Wheel and Prince Valiant).

 

[Remathilis]

No, the game sets the parameters - bring your treasure out of the dungeon, and earn your XP.

The GM designs the dungeon. The players explore and loot the dungeon. The GM adjudicates their efforts in accordance with the rules of the game.

This is not the same as the GM deciding.

How do they find their possible goals? Achieve those goals? And how does this relate to the XP and PC-improvement system?

This is all GM-controlled.

So what happens when the DM puts no treasure in the dungeon? Fools gold and glass beads. Is the DM allowed to because he is the sole arbiter of the game or is the DM breaking the rules of D&D by sabotaging the gameplay loop?

 

[pemerton]

There is no difference between that and a DM designing a story based game and players deciding which story elements they engage with.

the players never knew the rewards, you do not know what treasure is where in the dungeon and how to get to it. You do not know
the risks / danger either, they can proceed cautiously, but there is no real risk vs reward decision the players are aware of and can use to determine a best course of action.

If @mamba was correct then @TiQuinn would be correct.

But mamba is not correct - as per what I quoted from Gygax's PHB, there are many ways that players in classic D&D establish what the rewards are, what the risks are, how to get to the treasure, etc. This is what mapping and scrying/divination are for. This is why there are wands of metal and mineral detection, detect magic spells, etc. It's also why dungeons are organised in levels, with the danger increasing the deeper the PCs go.

(NB. The preceding paragraph really just reiterates what @AbdulAlhazred said not too far upthread.)

So what happens when the DM puts no treasure in the dungeon? Fools gold and glass beads. Is the DM allowed to because he is the sole arbiter of the game or is the DM breaking the rules of D&D by sabotaging the gameplay loop?

Yes, that would be breaking the rules. It would be like purporting to be a code-maker in Mastermind <Mastermind (board game) - Wikipedia> and sticking in a peg of a colour that the code-breaker doesn't know is in play.

This is why Gygax's DMG (and other rulebooks for variants of the game - eg Moldvay Basic) include, as part of the rules for building a dungeon, rules for placing treasure.

 

[R_J_K75]

Anyone else notice that the 2024 DMG seems to no longer be available for pre-order on Amazon, at least in the USA. A search brings up the 2024 version but when you click on the link it defaults to the 2014 version and says "there is a newer model of this item" but again brings you back to the 2014 version. Its sold and shipped by Amazon, so I'm wondering if there are supply issues or if the initial print run has sold out on Amazon?

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Dungeon-Masters-Rulebook-dp-0786965622/dp/0786969520/ref=dp_ob_title_toy?th=1

 

[Micah Sweet]

Well, I think the difference from Gauntlet would be that (i) the fiction is part of the framing and resolution, and hence (ii) the variety of player-side moves, and GM side-moves - including the set-up for the latter, especially via "tricks" - is going to be much greater.

But anyway, and as @niklinna posted, it seems to have been a pretty successful game model!

Yup. Referring to classic play as Gauntlet is reductive and derogatory. Hard not to see it as intentionally so.

 

[niklinna]

It seems like we could start with an argument that the marker belongs around, say, late 1e.

And why assume only one marker, at that? 1e, 2e, 3e/d20, 4e, and 5e (and of course the b/x and becmi series)—even in their varying forms as played at actual tables, and as published modules and supplements explored new styles—are all quite different games in fundamental ways, even though they are recognizably related. Changes in late 1e would appear to have strongly inspired the changes in 2e, as just one example. Some tables played 1e with strict xp for gold dungeon crawls (my initial high school group). Some tables played later modules that started introducing scripted plot and more ambiguous XP rules. Some editions pull whole new design and play philosophies in—3e players "winning by character build," 4e's modular and parallel class design based on roles, powers with power sources, and AEDU abilities (among other changes), 5e's paring down to basics (in some ways at least).

 

[tetrasodium]

Anyone else notice that the 2024 DMG seems to no longer be available for pre-order on Amazon, at least in the USA. A search brings up the 2024 version but when you click on the link it defaults to the 2014 version and says "there is a newer model of this item" but again brings you back to the 2014 version. Its sold and shipped by Amazon, so I'm wondering if there are supply issues or if the initial print run has sold out on Amazon?

https://www.amazon.com/Dungeons-Dragons-Dungeon-Masters-Rulebook-dp-0786965622/dp/0786969520/ref=dp_ob_title_toy?th=1

I don't feel like going through browser history & trying to find it, but the other day I saw a video covering how there was some screwy stuff happening on the 2024dmg page & add to [amazon] cart link on wotc's(ddb's?) page where it would say show the 2014 version and there is a newer version but link back to the 2014 version if you clicked the link. Adding it to the cart from the 2024 page on wotc's (ddb's?) site would add the 2014 version.

The new MM had a proper select thing on amazon based on the video so my guess is someone added the product to the amazonlistings while missing the proper checkboxes.

 

[R_J_K75]

I don't feel like going through browser history & trying to find it, but the other day I saw a video covering how there was some screwy stuff happening on the 2024dmg page & add to [amazon] cart link on wotc's(ddb's?) page where it would say show the 2014 version and there is a newer version but link back to the 2014 version if you clicked the link. Adding it to the cart from the 2024 page on wotc's (ddb's?) site would add the 2014 version.

The new MM had a proper select thing on amazon based on the video so my guess is someone added the product to the amazonlistings while missing the proper checkboxes.

Sure it'll be fixed sooner than later then if they are aware of the problem

 

[Remathilis]

Yup. Referring to classic play as Gauntlet is reductive and derogatory. Hard not to see it as intentionally so.

I made no value judgement except to point out that Gary's prescribed style was the grandfather of dungeon crasher games, Gauntlet being the most famous. But if you want, I'll state that the idea of D&D being best played as excursions into a dungeon for the only purpose is to get treasure (which is XP, which gains you levels, which allows you go further into the dungeon) IS a simplistic form of D&D and ignores all manner of alternative styles of play (wilderness/hex crawl, story first/immersive, adventure path, etc).

My point is that that dungeon crawl isn't any better just because it was Gary's preferred method, and the game branched out from that as the only/preferred method rather quickly.

Also, I like Gauntlet. It's a fun game. But I also like Final Fantasy and Legend of Zelda. D&D can do L of those.