D&D (2024) Why are weapon masteries limited?

[Guest 7037866]

Not every DM gives a month off for downtime. Time pressure is a heavily used DM tool.

If the player wants it, they can have it. No player is obligated to go on an adventure. Time pressure only exists because the players agree to it. If time pressure is somehow enforced, they can change weapon masteries after the adventure is over.

Regardless, as far as weapon mastery is concerned, the benefits are not that powerful that if the choice becomes a magical weapon without mastery vs. a mundane weapon with mastery, it just depends on which the player feels the PC will benefit from more.

It's gamist but many fans hate simulationist weapon availablity.

Which is fine, but yeah it is still gamist, which I find silly frankly. Using downtime to retrain isn't about simulationism, it is about bringing a level of realistic expectations to a fantasy game--which enhances the fantasy element IMO by creating the contrast between the two.

I ran into this problem at most tables I sat at in a 2e or 3e table when weapon specialization was allowed and used.

Whenever the wrong weapon dropped, if the fighter player didn't already have a higher +X weapon.... complaining,

And the useless weapon was then sold or traded for a useful one 9 out of 10 times, or some other powerful magical item, etc. In AD&D, the games I ran and played in were very much the "dice fall where they may" and that included rolling up magical items and weapons. Sure, sometimes the results were not as useful to players, but such are the whims of fate.

It's the Ranger Favored Enemy for Weapons.

Whatever that is supposed to mean... but it must be connected since you've mentioned it a couple times...

Sure. And I don't think it should define it. I don't think martial characters need to be locked to specific limited weapon combos from the get go.

That's fine if you don't think is should. I gather from the OP they do?

Besides, fighting styles already do it, so you already have a mechanic for defining their style (which I dislike.)

Which thanks to Tasha's and Martial Versatility, you can now swap out... but it is every few levels more or less, not on a long rest.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I should have been more clear. I don't think it's a power level problem to have access to all masteries. I think it's narratively much, much worse. It's called golf bagging and juggling because it's even more unrealistic than switching masteries overnight. I think the limit exists because the alternative prompts a play pattern that drives a truck through verisimilitude. And, yes, you could make a character that specifically has a narrative justification. But if masteries are good, then now you need to do that with every character.

Of course it is not more unrealistic for a professional combatant to know multiple techniques (this definitely does exist in real life) than being able to forget and relearn things overnight (which most definitely doesn't happen in real life, a child could tell you that.) And of course not all characters are proficient with all weapons, so they cannot utilise all masteries.

As for golf-bagging, if you mean by that a combatant switching to an appropriate weapon for given situation, that I would to a certain degree definitely consider a feature and not a flaw. It is both interesting and realistic. Historically warriors tended to use wide variety of weapons and adapt based on situation. A single samurai might fight with a naginata, bow, katana, wakizashi or dual wield the latter two depending on the circumstances.

And of course there already is (IMHO unfortunately) mechanic that severely limits this: the fighting styles. So no need for more pigeonholing with masteries.

Meanwhile, the ability to switch... I just don't think it's going to come up in practice. In most games, you'll pick your kit at level 1 and stick to it. Your DM will dispense items that fit what fighting style, mastery, and feats you picked because they're not a jerk and they're not oblivious. So to me the swap rule is entirely there just because bad DMs exist and the rules need to account for that.

Right. It will rarely come up, and the game balance certainly assumes that characters with access to masteries wield weapons they can use masteries with it, so removing the swapping and just letting them use a mastery of any weapon they're proficient with changes little, except makes things more sensible and less annoying.

 

[Horwath]

I don't even get why you can change them on a long rest? It is MASTERY after all... so , you can mastery a different rider on a long rest, but suddenly forget one you just had mastered???

Come on!!! That's just gamist and silly IMO

they wanted to give every weapon it's special "feel" and they figured that mastery was a good idea, but in reality it's not as you depend on your DM to give you weapon "drops".

so this "mastery preparation" was conjures as they were spells or better yet wizard cantrips.

that is why I will treat them as "battle master maneuvers light" and have them known and be applied to weapons where is appropriate.
and you will be able to change one on leveling.

 

[Horwath]

I dunno. Maybe it's a good way to separate out "Finesse Wielder who Duels" and "Dual Wielding Finesse Wielder"... but in play it's just going to further pigeonhole specific weapons to specific wielders.

we just turned every dual wielding rogue from 2 shortswords into shortsword+scimitar.

 

[Willie the Duck]

Whatever that is supposed to mean... but it must be connected since you've mentioned it a couple times...

Not the person you are responding to, but the concept is that a player picks favored terrains/favored enemies (most of them at level 1) and then discovers that the campaign includes effectively no deserts or orcs.

 

[Horwath]

Not every DM gives a month off for downtime. Time pressure is a heavily used DM tool.

It's gamist but many fans hate simulationist weapon availablity.

I ran into this problem at most tables I sat at in a 2e or 3e table when weapon specialization was allowed and used.

Whenever the wrong weapon dropped, if the fighter player didn't already have a higher +X weapon.... complaining,

It's the Ranger Favored Enemy for Weapons.

hate to give praise to 4E again, but it has some kind of transfer enchantment ritual you could move magic properties from one magic weapon to a mundane weapon of choice, if that weapon is compatible for that specific enchantment.

 

[Steampunkette]

As for golf-bagging, if you mean by that a combatant switching to an appropriate weapon for given situation, that I would to a certain degree definitely consider a feature and not a flaw. It is both interesting and realistic. Historically warriors tended to use wide variety of weapons and adapt based on situation. A single samurai might fight with a naginata, bow, katana, wakizashi or dual wield the latter two depending on the circumstances.

Golfbagging is what Squires are for!

One of my favorite scenes in 1981's fantastic film Excalibur is the battle between Gawain and Lancelot at the trial of Guinevere.

They begin the battle on horseback with lances, but the already injured Lancelot cannot hold his saddle and Gawain couldn't hold up to Lancelot's skill or might so both are immediately unseated.

They move to foot with long two handed flanged maces to do battle, and it's not long before Lancelot's greater skill puts Gawain on his backside. But the injury continues to weigh on Lancelot and he rips off his helmet, barely able to breathe!

Gawain returns with a two handed fighting spike to try and finish Lancelot off, but in the crush of melee and the crash of armor, Lancelot manages to overcome Gawain, grab a dagger that had been dropped on the battlefield, get on top of him, and prepare to thrust it down into him.

Gawain yields. Guinevere's honor is secured through trial by combat... and then she follows Lancelot and bangs him under a tree showing that her honor was in fact tarnished, Gawain was right, and Lancelot was a poor friend to Arthur.

The Squires made the battle possible by offering weapons repeatedly! And apparently dropping a dagger or something at one point. I'm more fuzzy on that bit...

we just turned every dual wielding rogue from 2 shortswords into shortsword+scimitar.

So they can Nick -and- Vex in every turn? It's not a bad idea, at all... though Scimitar/Dagger might be a better choice since it also allows you to throw daggers as needed for a ranged combat option.

Though don't ignore the power of Short Sword/Hand Crossbow with Crossbow Mastery!

 

[Horwath]

So they can Nick -and- Vex in every turn? It's not a bad idea, at all... though Scimitar/Dagger might be a better choice since it also allows you to throw daggers as needed for a ranged combat option.

d4 damage and 20ft range?
it's more of a desperation than an option.

Though don't ignore the power of Short Sword/Hand Crossbow with Crossbow Mastery!

this is good combo, still somewhat bad range.

 

[Pauln6]

I dunno though. The scene in Conan the Barbarian where he retrains battle axe mastery didn't look that weird.

 

[Guest 7037866]

they wanted to give every weapon it's special "feel" and they figured that mastery was a good idea, but in reality it's not as you depend on your DM to give you weapon "drops".

so this "mastery preparation" was conjures as they were spells or better yet wizard cantrips.

that is why I will treat them as "battle master maneuvers light" and have them known and be applied to weapons where is appropriate.
and you will be able to change one on leveling.

Sounds fair. I agree the weapon mastery should have been you learn a mastery style, applicable to any weapon with that mastery property.

Changing out on a level instead of a long rest also feels fine. IME most people get in a bit of down time when they level anyway.

I just wish the effects weren't so much on Auto-mode, but I know that was done in an effort to reduce the slow down that requiring saves, calculating hit margins, etc. would create.

Not the person you are responding to, but the concept is that a player picks favored terrains/favored enemies (most of them at level 1) and then discovers that the campaign includes effectively no deserts or orcs.

shrug

IME most DMs would allow you to change them out when you level if it is really an issue. They are doing that with everything else now so players don't feel the "boo-hoo" of regrettable choices.

Frankly, those choices should be made by the story / campaign setting and history of the character IMO.

One of my favorite scenes in 1981's fantastic film Excalibur is the battle between Gawain and Lancelot at the trial of Guinevere.

FANTASTIC scene!!! Love it!