Spoilers Rings of Power is back!

[Micah Sweet]

Yep this right there.

If RoP conflicts with actual true cannon....ok I can understand concern. I don't think movies need to be 100% faithful to books but at least I get the argument.

RoP conflicts with the Silmarillion....who the heck cares, its a fanfic made with Tolkien's notes, not a Tolkein novel

Whether or not canon gets into it, the story of an adaptation should carry the spirit of the original, and there are choices RoP makes that make me skeptical about that. Beyond Tolkein, I also feel that stories should have a narrative and logical consistency to them, to promote verisimilitude, immersion, and a sense of caring about the characters and the plot. And again RoP has given me reason (many reasons in this case) to be skeptical about that.

That being said, everyone has their own line about this stuff, and plenty of folks obviously disagree or don't care about this stuff. Doesn't make either side wrong.

 

[Zardnaar]

Whether or not canon gets into it, the story of an adaptation should carry the spirit of the original, and there are choices RoP makes that make me skeptical about that. Beyond Tolkein, I also feel that stories should have a narrative and logical consistency to them, to promote verisimilitude, immersion, and a sense of caring about the characters and the plot. And again RoP has given me reason (many reasons in this case) to be skeptical about that.

That being said, everyone has their own line about this stuff, and plenty of folks obviously disagree or don't care about this stuff. Doesn't make either side wrong.

I'll make allowances when they adapt a novel. Eg they might have to cut stuff or tweak it for big screen adaption.

When you start directly contradicting source material though usually it ends badly and makes you look like a hack.

Very rarely it elevates the source material. Then you're a genius. Early seasons of GoT and HotD S1 pulled that off.

 

[Clint_L]

I don't care much about whether or not RoP is accurate to Tolkien's canon, to the extent that there is a Middle Earth canon. And I hate and reject all the stupid culture war criticisms of this show. Yet, I do have criticisms of the show, and feel guilty discussing them for fear that they will be misappropriated. So that's my disclaimer: I think there are things the show does well, and aspects of it that could be a lot better, and any criticisms should be taken in that spirit.

Good: I mean, it's visually gorgeous. I feel like it does a wonderful job of creating a cohesive aesthetic that feels like Middle Earth to me. There's a lot of continuation with Peter Jackson's vision, but also with various influential Middle Earth art books from the 70s. Costume design is fantastic, and the sets are wonderful. Shout out to the cinematography. And the score. These all reflect the (insanely) high budget, but in this respect, it's money well spent.

The actors are well cast. I buy most of them in their roles. Morfydd Clark does well to bring authenticity to a TOUGH role, because I think the elves are being directed to act more or less like Vulcans. So they all have to come across as incredibly restrained, while having a ton of repressed emotions. The dwarf and halfling actors all get to chew the scenery, and are suitably entertaining.

Bad: It's often tendentious and consequently kind of a slog. There is a huge amount of exposition, and way too many character arcs. To the extent that I have only just finished watching episode 3 because it is tough to convince my spouse to watch, and I think I will be finishing the series on my own. Eventually. As a Tolkien fan, I already know what the ending will be, as far as the major plot points go, so it needs to do a better job of investing me in the character arcs. Thus far, the only characters that I really care about are Elrond and Galadriel. I already know their fates, so it's the new characters that I need to be invested in in order to create some dramatic tension. That's what's really missing for me.

So plotting and character development are a drag.

Frankly, I think the whole series should focus on a few of those new characters and put the ALL the canonical names in the background. Way in the background. Give me Middle Earth from some truly new perspectives.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

I'll make allowances when they adapt a novel. Eg they might have to cut stuff or tweak it for big screen adaption.

When you start directly contradicting source material though usually it ends badly and makes you look like a hack.

Very rarely it elevates the source material. Then you're a genius. Early seasons of GoT and HotD S1 pulled that off.

There aren't many cases I can think of where a cinematic adaptation really surpasses the literature - The Godfather springs to mind. Maybe Blade Runner? Shawshank Redemption?

I think that the more egregious departures from Tolkien's history - say, the balrog, Gandalf, the order in which the rings are created - now act as problems which the showrunners have set themselves up with.

I suppose the balrog can go back to sleep for another (2000-3500) years; Gandalf can drop off the map for another (1000-2500) years, but as soon as these characters interact with the main thrust of events, they send the events of LotR off kilter - which seem to be viewed as "canonical" even if nothing else is.

When I suggested that RoP should be viewed as taking place in an alternate Middle-Earth, it was because I view these issues as largely insurmountable. You can't really anchor RoP in time with respect to the legendarium, with any kind of continuity looking back as presented in the Silmarillion, or looking forward to LotR.

I wouldn't really even call it an adaptation. The world of RoP is a "cinematic environment inspired by Tolkien."

 

[Zardnaar]

There aren't many cases I can think of where a cinematic adaptation really surpasses the literature - The Godfather springs to mind. Maybe Blade Runner? Shawshank Redemption?

I think that the more egregious departures from Tolkien's history - say, the balrog, Gandalf, the order in which the rings are created - now act as problems which the showrunners have set themselves up with.

I suppose the balrog can go back to sleep for another (2000-3500) years; Gandalf can drop off the map for another (1000-2500) years, but as soon as these characters interact with the main thrust of events, they send the events of LotR off kilter - which seem to be viewed as "canonical" even if nothing else is.

When I suggested that RoP should be viewed as taking place in an alternate Middle-Earth, it was because I view these issues as largely insurmountable. You can't really anchor RoP in time with respect to the legendarium, with any kind of continuity looking back as presented in the Silmarillion, or looking forward to LotR.

I wouldn't really even call it an adaptation. The world of RoP is a "cinematic environment inspired by Tolkien."

I don't know the lore well enough. I've read the hobbit once, Sen the movies once and read parts of a wiki.

Casual I suppose. S1 had a lot of issues imho. The big one it's really boring. Faithful to lotr in that regard.
S2 was a huge improvement. Wouldn't t call it good overall but had some actual good episodes (cf S1 which had around 0). It's a win overall.

Even I have noticed they have condensed the events of the second age though. My knowledge on that is purely from the wiki.

Deviating from source material I can compare that to GoT though. Reasonable divergences are fine eg adding dialog, cutting non essential scenes, adding some character development.

When you start deviating alot why adapt something instead of doing your own thing? We all know the answer to that (writers think they can do better than the original author). Rarely ends well.

I'm not going to nitpick Nummenor because on screen you can tell they're more advanced than Mainlanders. It's an Atlantis type thing but I'm not expecting them to have fusion power or flying machines etc.

 

[Alzrius]

There aren't many cases I can think of where a cinematic adaptation really surpasses the literature - The Godfather springs to mind. Maybe Blade Runner? Shawshank Redemption?

All of a sudden, this old article comes to mind:

5 Movies That Improved on the Book (According to the Author)

Uh-oh. They've made your favorite book into a movie. And, of course, they've changed everything: Bill Spacechek, the courageous Polish protagonist, is now Biff SpaceChest, Aryan super-soldier. That touching scene in the garden is now an exploding cruise ship.H

www.cracked.com

 

[Paul Farquhar]

There aren't many cases I can think of where a cinematic adaptation really surpasses the literature - The Godfather springs to mind. Maybe Blade Runner? Shawshank Redemption?

You can add to that list The Fellowship of the Ring. Does anyone not think that cutting Glorfindel and giving his part to Arwen, rather than having her as someone who just sits around doing embroidery did not improve on the original text?

I suppose the balrog can go back to sleep for another (2000-3500) years; Gandalf can drop off the map for another (1000-2500) years, but as soon as these characters interact with the main thrust of events, they send the events of LotR off kilter - which seem to be viewed as "canonical" even if nothing else is.

No, the dates really don't matter. They happened in the past, and that is all that matters for the PJ movies.

I'm not going to nitpick Nummenor because on screen you can tell they're more advanced than Mainlanders. It's an Atlantis type thing but I'm not expecting them to have fusion power or flying machines etc.

Nothing in the text rules out Numenorian fusion power. It's certainly a retelling of Atlantis, and Tolkien's source material had Oriculum. He just didn't really develop that material, presumably because he was more interested in Saxon myth than Greek.

I think the elves are being directed to act more or less like Vulcans

This is an interesting observation. Has Star Trek coloured the way we see elves, and hence how they have been portrayed in the PJ movies and this TV show? In The Hobbit (novel) we see elves joking and teasing, singling frivolous songs, having wild parties in the middle of spider infested woods, and drinking themselves into a stupor on wine. They are largely serious in LotR, but that's because the circumstance are dire. In the animated movie Legolas (voiced by Anthony C3PO Daniels if I remember correctly) was characterised quite differently to the Orlando Bloom version. Tolkien left the character pretty underwritten, so wide open to interpretation.

 

[Zardnaar]

You can add to that list The Fellowship of the Ring. Does anyone not think that cutting Glorfindel and giving his part to Arwen, rather than having her as someone who just sits around doing embroidery did not improve on the original text?

No, the dates really don't matter. They happened in the past, and that is all that matters for the PJ movies.

Nothing in the text rules out Numenorian fusion power. It's certainly a retelling of Atlantis, and Tolkien's source material had Oriculum. He just didn't really develop that material, presumably because he was more interested in Saxon myth than Greek.

This is an interesting observation. Has Star Trek coloured the way we see elves, and hence how they have been portrayed in the PJ movies and this TV show? In The Hobbit (novel) we see elves joking and teasing, singling frivolous songs, having wild parties in the middle of spider infested woods, and drinking themselves into a stupor on wine. They are largely serious in LotR, but that's because the circumstance are dire. In the animated movie Legolas (voiced by Anthony C3PO Daniels if I remember correctly) was characterised quite differently to the Orlando Bloom version. Tolkien left the character pretty underwritten, so wide open to interpretation.

Not a trekkie haven't read Hobbit in 30 odd years.

Tor the most part what I see onscreen in the movies or RoP is my Middle Earth experience.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Not a trekkie haven't read Hobbit in 30 odd years.

Tor the most part what I see onscreen in the movies or RoP is my Middle Earth experience.

But it’s hard to imagine PJ, the writers and the actors have never seen Star Trek.

 

[Zardnaar]

But it’s hard to imagine PJ, the writers and the actors have never seen Star Trek.

True. But there's only so many ways to do pointy ears.