D&D (2024) Dancing bards and true strike.

[mellored]

I agree, since I come at it from a completely different angle. I look at the Dance Bard and think of how many abilities are useful outside of combat, the other 66% of the game. You've got Dance Virtuoso at 3rd, and then... Leading Evasion at 14th.

And the out of combat Valor Bard abilities are...

 

[Zardnaar]

I will add that Valor 6 is one of the best features in the game when multiclassing.

Yeah there's some nice potential there.

Have to see Dancing Bard in action. If yore expecting a Monk, blade dancer, swords bard damage think again.

It good at buffing and built in AC. Basically you have magic bard, battle bard, support bard and control bard.

Might be bad but I don't think it is. At the worst it's maybe B tier.

 

[Ashrym]

Still not seeing why you think it matters.

I'm not seeing why you don't think the ability to prevent damage in combat on an enemy's turn after thp had run out isn't relevant. Mantle of Inspiration can't grant more thp off turn, and again Cutting Words works with any other sources of thp as well and Mantle of Inspiration does not.

You take 20 damage from minor threats +20 damage from fireball = 40 damage.

-THP = 30 damage
-Cutting Words = 35

It's still not a 2:1 ratio because we're typically looking at a 3 or 4 or 5 target limit on Mantle of Inspiration. The BI die averages are 7thp, 9thp, 11thp, and 13thp. Cutting Words on and AoE that damages 6+ creatures is protecting creatures outside of that limit. Cutting Words on an AoE that damages 7+ or 9+ or 11+ creatures (depending on CHA score) beats that total every time.

Creatures includes pets, mounts, and NPC's among other things.

That only matters if you take you take enough damage to go though your THP and your HP before you get a bonus action.

I'm not following you here. Cutting Words works to preserve those thp. It doesn't matter if the thp are full, half full, or gone. It doesn't matter if the creature has taken hp damage or not. Cutting Words can still prevent that AoE damage.

Mantle of Inspiration cannot be used at any time like that. The Glamour bard is waiting out the loss of those thp and also waiting on their own turn for that bonus action.

I.e. you have 50HP, 10 THP and get hit between 60 and 65 damage, and that's assuming you don't roll a 1 on cutting words.

I mean, aren't you assuming you aren't rolling 2 for thp? Bad rolls on the BI dice are bad rolls on the BI dice regardless. But if the creature gets hit for that much damage the thp or damage mitigation doesn't stop extra damage from disappearing at 0hp.

High damage doesn't change anything I pointed out. But it does have more impact on the targets who didn't receive those thp that Cutting Words also helps.

Also, cutting words requires the caster within 60'.

Mantle of Inspiration requires the targets to be within 60' as well. I sounds like you throw away the movement benefits a lot by not saving Mantle of Inspiration for it's full effect.

The ability to carry BI or thp away from the bard afterward is definitely an advantage though. I don't think anyone is ever going to say otherwise.

We are comparing the best case scenario for it. Something that doesn't happen every day. It does nothing against a fireball trap or long ranged attacks.

If that usefulness doesn't come up with Fireball it could be used on a breath weapon too. AoE damage isn't uncommon. If not there are other uses for Cutting Words like doubling down on the BI bonus given one character and also applying the penalty to their opponent.

Or the main use, which is causing opponents to fail in their checks or fail in their attacks.

THP is far more universally useful.

I agree on this point. But it's also more available elsewhere and still requires being granted on the bard's turn in this scenario. A bard who upcasts Heroism for a combat can give significant thp easily as well, or we can get back to spending a feat, or a combination of both. A Lore bard who does both has the thp and Cutting Words.

Familiars and mounts won't survive a fireball either way.

Standard Familiars might not survive a Fireball but that's not the only source of AoE damage in the game and they aren't the only familiars.

Imps, Quasits, and Sphinxes of Wonder have over 20 hp and damage resistance features. The Fireball example does 28 avg damage or 14 on a save.

A Sphynx of Wonder has 24hp so a 5 or better on the Cutting Words roll does save that familiar. The DC on an enemy spellcaster Fireball is usually 14 or 15 and the Sphinx has a +3 bonus with advantage, and will save the majority of the time.

Find Steed gives a 25hp mount that can also survive an average Fireball reduced in damage by Cutting Words. Even a regular riding horse with 13hp and a + 1 save bonus survives a Fireball by saving about 25% of the time with the Cutting Words benefit, but I should acknowledge that Cutting Words is applied before defenses and saves for the math.

Beastmaster pets that might be in range have 5hp per ranger level. They can use the damage mitigation and will survive.

The drawback on Mantle of Inspiration isn't thp aren't useful. It's the restricted number of targets in comparison and the fact that bards don't need Mantle of Inspiration to grant thp in the first place. Mantle of Inspiration is just another way of granting thp. Mantle of Inspiration is just a good source for thp.

So?
Cutting Words doesn't have a movement option.

Neither does Mantle of Inspiration if you never use it. ;-)

Mantle of Inspiration doesn't have a "don't get hit by that attack option" either like Cutting Words can do. We've been talking about AoE damage reduction, but on an individual basis preventing an attack from succeeding can prevent more damage for that creature than 7 thp soaks up.

Combat Inspiration is also useful on occasion. But that's not all the Valor Bard gets.

Cutting Words isn't all a Lore Bard gets. Those extra proficiencies improve faster and better than the Jack of all Trades bonus mentioned earlier. Magical Discoveries for cantrips or rituals provide an option that doesn't require spell slots.

Those are both useful in how the player is choosing to apply them.

THP and going first is useful all the time.

Thp are useful. The inability to replace those thp when they might be needed is where the concern is, as well as predicting who will need those thp beforehand because Mantle of Inspiration doesn't get applied to everyone.

With Cutting Words the bard can apply the benefit at the time the benefit is needed.

Yes. and it applies to all skills.
Which is more than 3.

How does applying a small benefit to many skills the PC doesn't use much matter compared to a bigger bonus in the skills the player wants to use, which is why they were chosen?

If I want my bard to be stealthy, I'm going to select Stealth because I want a bigger bonus. We select skills because we want our PC's to be good at those skills. Lore bards are better at those skills we selected that we want to be good at.

You have a limited number of spell slots.

And more options to use those slots to create that advantage.

Having the option to cast Firewall or Polymorph in the first place is better than only having the option to cast Polymorph because the bard has leveraged his ability to use that spell slot in more situations.

More spells prepped is more opportunities to use those spells slots effectively.

Alternative uses are not bad. But extra uses are better.

AND is better than OR.

This is only true in a reductionist sense that ignores details. Let's look at Glamour vs Lore at 3rd level again.

Glamour gains Charm Person and Mirror Image for free. You just argued that this is just another way to spend spell slots. I see it as more opportunity to spend spell slots effectively. Beguiling Magic also grants the ability to charm or frighten additional targets when casting an enchantment or illusion spell. This can be done once per long rest. It's rechargeable with BI uses but simultaneously restricted by spell slots used and conditional criteria.

Glamour also gets Mantle of Inspiration. You've argued that this should be used proactively to prevent damage through thp. I see more value in granting movement on a reaction from the targets and would use this in grid style combat. I think we both agree this becomes a good source of thp but at this level it's only 3 targets that averages 6 or 8 thp per target.

Both of these abilities are being fueled by BI dice and the Glamour bard has 3 of these to spend on those abilities in the entire day, plus any other BI dice being handed out.

The Lore bard gains Cutting Words, which has the same issues with being fueled by BI dice. The advantage here is that it can be used to reduce damage, reactively based on needs instead of proactively based on expected needs, and can be used on opponents directly to prevent succeeding in their attacks or checks. Useful in a different way.

Lore bards also get 3 more skill proficiencies to be used for skills the bard wants to be better at. This falls into the "AND" category that you were mentioning and they do not cost spell slots or BI dice. This is a benefit the Lore bard can use all day. Being good at Arcana, History, Athletics, Stealth, Perception, Insight, Persuasion, and Sleight of Hand has it's appeal instead of giving up half proficiency on 3 of them. Someone else's list might be different it's a case of better at the skills we want. I don't want to be +1 or +2 at those other 3 skills. I want to be +2 through +5.

In both cases BI dice are limited and spell slots are limited, but using skills is not.

At 6th Glamour bards gain Mantle of Majesty. I really like this ability. It adds Command to the free spells prepped and gives a once per long rest ability to use Command more. It's recharged on a 3rd level spell slot or higher, limiting the ability to spell slots as well.

Mantle of Majesty requires concentration. That excludes using other spells with concentration.

The Lore bard gains Magical Discoveries. You're right in that free use of Beguiling Magic and Mantle of Majesty exist, but that isn't going to give them Fireball or Spirit Guardians. Or Prayer of Healing for a faster short rest to recover BI dice without needing that short rest. Any cleric, druid, or wizard spell or cantrip opens up a lot of options.

At 14th level Glamour bards gain Unbreakable Majesty as a defensive ability that recharges on a short or long rest. It's not a bad ability for damage mitigation but by this time bards have so many options for status effects to prevent attacks that it's more hay in a haystack.

The Lore bard gains Peerless Skill at 14th level. I've already pointed out I think this is a very strong ability because it doesn't cost BI dice unless it works, therefore every BI dice that does get used turns that failure into a success. It does cost BI dice too, but every ability Glamour Bards have either cost BI dice or spell slots. Even Unbreakable Majesty is a limited resource.

All Glamour bard abilities run on limited resources. In the meantime, those bonus skill proficiencies do not and continue to improve. If I want to focus on skills then I'm going to take a Lore bard over a Glamour bard. If I am going to focus on illusions and enchantments then I'm going to go Glamour bard over Lore bard.

Ok. That's still an alternative use of your action. Upgrading Starry Whisp to Firebolt isn't much.

It's not, which is why I would never do that. I'd stick with Truestrike and not bother with Starry Wisp or Firebolt. But I might take Guidance or Acid Blast or Mind Sliver.

Actually, Guidance would count as an extra use. You're not going to be using it in combat, and you might as well double down on skills as a lore bard..

There are other useful cantrips to add. ;-)

Can all bards trade out cantrips after 10?

Not RAW. Magical Secrets is specific to prepared spells, which cantrips are not. Bards who switch out cantrips outside of Magical Discoveries would be stuck with the bard cantrip list still.

Still not as good as giving half your party an extra turn in combat, or repeatable bonus action command.

None of the bard subclasses grant and extra turn in combat unless I missed something. Tandem Footwork gives a bonus to initiative but that doesn't give an extra turn. It takes what it takes to drop opponents. Good initiative give the opportunity to deny turns on the opponents though, although going first still isn't guaranteed.

It is good.
And all bards can do that at level 1 (including boosting saves which is probably the best use).

Not the same.

All bards can grant a similar ability to another creature but those are still expended whether adding the BI die roll changes that D20 test to a success or not. Those can still fail. Peerless Skill hasn't lost the BI die if the test still fails.

Every BI die used by Peerless Skill has effectively created that success. Otherwise it wasn't used. The same cannot be said for BI dice granted to others.

And if you use Cuttiing Words, that's 1 less stealth check that can succeed.

That a "we'll cross that bridge when we get to it" moment. I would spend the 1st level spell slot to recover a BI die to use for Peerless Skill and succeed at that stealth check.

Are there situations where reducing an enemy is better than boosting an ally? Of course.
But it doesn't necessarily happen every day.

Can you elaborate? I find causing opponents to fail checks and attacks to be useful.

Yes.
But again, if you use it on yourself, that's 1 less skill check someone else makes.

Why use it on someone else if I'm going to succeed? BI dice being a limited resource is still something that affects all bards regardless of college.

Unless you are constantly trying to do stuff you have a small chance of succeeding all, or the occasional bad luck, your not getting extra BI.

I don't need extra BI. Peerless Skill or Bardic Inspiration are only called into question on a failure in the first place. Being good at skills means less failures means less uses of BI dice. It's not a bad thing to not need the dice.

Handing out the BI dice for others is how they get used faster. That's not necessarily bad either because it makes a group check much easier.

Compared to half damage from fireballs, or being unhitable from all the low Cha enemies. With no BI cost.

I don't take any damage from a Fireball if I Invisibility sneak by the entire encounter. Unbreakable Majesty isn't helping open any locks.

Also, I'm a bard. I can just cast Fear and those creatures cannot move towards me, try to flee, and attack with disadvantage if they get an opportunity. It's hard to get hit by a lot of monsters who cannot approach the bard. Status effects are very easy for a 14th level bard to have from the Bard, Cleric, Druid, and Wizard lists.

Might be better than Valor 14 though, which has competition for the bonus action. And it doesn't qualify for any "attack action" boost like great weapon master or nick. But it's still no BI cost.

One of the nice things about Valor bards is they don't spend extra BI dice on other effects. They just continue handing it out and gain more martial abilities. Dance, Glamour, and Lore all have abilities that can burn through those dice fast.

If your not worried about combat, then sure. Valor and Dance are not helping, Glamor only does a little, and Lore would be top.

The bard chassis already helps with combat enough as a support caster. The skills benefits are for outside of combat, yes.

16 scaling to 18.

Dance bards can have 20 AC easily enough. The issue is it takes a long time to get there. It's either 4 ASI's or 3 ASI's a +1 feat and the Epic Boon. Or take less AC.

Valor bards go to 19 AC easily enough and faster but Dance bards can overtake this. Barring magic items.

At level 3, that leaves
Lore: affect 3 rolls.
Dance: affect 3 rolls and make 3 attacks.

And Lore is proficient in 3 more skills.

Going first generates an extra attack.
It might just be the Barbarian's attack.

Going first doesn't generate an extra attack. It potentially prevents opposition attacks. Subtle difference.

I think going first favors spellcasters, not martials, because they can AoE or land status effects. Or both. An initiative bonus is a strong ability no matter how we look at it though.

This is how I see all 4 colleges...

Dance Bard: Elusive and hard to pin down. Seems like a roguish caster to me.
Glamour Bard: Classic enchanter / illusionist style of character.
Lore Bard: Skills focused. Seems could be roguish or sagely depending on the character.
Valor Bard: Front line support. Classic "fighter/magic-user/rogue" combination with martial, magical, and skilled abilities.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I'm not sure this makes dance bards better.

I mean, I can't see how it could possibly make them worse if this is simply an addition, rather than a replacement. Getting the option of using a Bonus Action with no resource cost, or a Free Action with a resource cost, seems like a pretty good deal, especially at early levels when you don't have as much you can do with that BA.

 

[Ashrym]

I mean, I can't see how it could possibly make them worse if this is simply an addition, rather than a replacement. Getting the option of using a Bonus Action with no resource cost, or a Free Action with a resource cost, seems like a pretty good deal, especially at early levels when you don't have as much you can do with that BA.

I was reading it as a replacement.

If it's simply an additional bonus action attack then Valor bards turn to crap in comparison without resorting to imposing restrictions on using that bonus action attack. The Dance bard will have replicated Battle Magic but better and almost replicated the Valor bard's extra attack ability if they can just cast a cantrip and then make an attack. Plus the AC bonus and other abilities Dance bards have.

If the ability needs reworked for restrictions anyway then why not just leave it as is and use a monk splash to do the same thing with the inherent restrictions that come with multiclassing?

As an additional that doesn't hurt the Dance bard but I think it does hurt the Valor bard a lot. As a replacement it hurts both. The Valor bard kind of offers little to nothing if the Dance bard getting attacks that way.

 

[mellored]

I'm not seeing why you don't think the ability to prevent damage in combat on an enemy's turn after thp had run out isn't relevant. Mantle of Inspiration can't grant more thp off turn, and again Cutting Words works with any other sources of thp as well and Mantle of Inspiration does not.

If your party has a twilight cleric, artillery Artificer, a world tree barbarian, and a glory paladin, and you took inspiring leader, then sure.

Glamor bard will have to use beguiling magic instead.

It's still not a 2:1 ratio because we're typically looking at a 3 or 4 or 5 target limit on Mantle of Inspiration. The BI die averages are 7thp, 9thp, 11thp, and 13thp. Cutting Words on and AoE that damages 6+ creatures is protecting creatures outside of that limit. Cutting Words on an AoE that damages 7+ or 9+ or 11+ creatures (depending on CHA score) beats that total every time.

IF there has a creature within 60'
IF it deals AoE damage
IF there are 11+ creatures in the zone THEN Cutting words prevents a little more damage.

I would hardly call that every time though. You could easily go though a day without any AoE's. Or the wizard is 80' away.

If only 2 creatures are hit in the blast, then it's more of a 4:1 ratio.

Creatures includes pets, mounts, and NPC's among other things.

Preventing 5 out of 20 damage to a 1 HP Owl familiar doesn't count as useful damage reduction.

Giving a 13 HP horse 10 THP might though.

I mean, aren't you assuming you aren't rolling 2 for thp? Bad rolls on the BI dice are bad rolls on the BI dice regardless.

Sure.
but your perfect scenario has only 1 chance to apply a BI.

So you need to be hit in a very narrow window of damage and that one roll needs to be within that window.

Under more normal circumstances, where you take damage over multiple turns and have multiple rolls, it will average out more.

Mantle of Inspiration requires the targets to be within 60' as well.

If they are not within 60', they are not in the same AoE (except Meteor swarm)

If that usefulness doesn't come up with Fireball it could be used on a breath weapon too. AoE damage isn't uncommon.

"AoE damage while clumped up in a large group" is a lot less common than "damage".

If not there are other uses for Cutting Words like doubling down on the BI bonus given one character and also applying the penalty to their opponent.

Glamor has other uses for BI as well. Like movement, or charming people.

Imps, Quasits, and Sphinxes of Wonder have over 20 hp and damage resistance features. The Fireball example does 28 avg damage or 14 on a save.

So giving them 10 THP will ensure they survive at least 1 Fireball.

Cutting Words might help.

A Sphynx of Wonder has 24hp so a 5 or better on the Cutting Words roll does save that familiar.

And a 3 or better will work for THP.

The drawback on Mantle of Inspiration isn't thp aren't useful. It's the restricted number of targets in comparison and the fact that bards

Your still assuming everyone is group in fireball formation.

But again. If you got a twilight cleri that everyone is next to, and your fighting AoE using undead that are immune to charm and frightened, the Lore will be better than Glamor.

But most campaigns, most of the time, it's not.

Mantle of Inspiration doesn't have a "don't get hit by that attack option" either like Cutting Words can do. We've been talking about AoE damage reduction, but on an individual basis preventing an attack from succeeding can prevent more damage for that creature than 7 thp soaks up.

You said reducing AoE damage was it's best use.

But let's look at a best case, making a Terrasque biggest attack miss.

That's 36 damage.
Vs
13*5 = 65 THP

Sure there can be other riders on the hits, but you don't really get to choose which attack to use it on. And it could go to waste.

Rolling a 1 on THP isn't much, but will still be used.

Magical Discoveries for cantrips or rituals provide an option that doesn't require spell slots.

Fair.

The inability to replace those thp when they might be needed is where the concern is, as well as predicting who will need those thp beforehand because Mantle of Inspiration doesn't get applied to everyone.

Not sure why you need to predict it.
Do they have THP?
If no, give them THP.

It will still be there when they take damage 2 hours later.

How does applying a small benefit to many skills the PC doesn't use much matter compared to a bigger bonus in the skills the player wants to use, which is why they were chosen?

Not sure why we are comparing base features to subclass features.

If I want my bard to be stealthy, I'm going to select Stealth because I want a bigger bonus.

If you want to be stealthy, take Stealth as your background and Expertise it at level 2.

Then Lore gives you your next choices at level 3. You need to wait till level 9 before you can get expertise in your Lore gained skills.

We select skills because we want our PC's to be good at those skills. Lore bards are better at those skills we selected that we want to be good at.

No. Lore bards are better at more skills.

Not till 14 do they get better at your favorite skill.

Glamour gains Charm Person and Mirror Image for free. You just argued that this is just another way to spend spell slots. I see it as more opportunity to spend spell slots effectively.

Yes. More options is good.

But Glamor also has a free use of their features.

Glamour also gets Mantle of Inspiration. You've argued that this should be used proactively to prevent damage through thp. I see more value in granting movement on a reaction from the targets and would use this in grid style combat.

Ok.
Thing is, when you grant movment, you also grant THP.

Both of these abilities are being fueled by BI dice and the Glamour bard has 3 of these to spend on those abilities in the entire day,

Glamor can use 4 abilities.

The advantage here is that it can be used to reduce damage, reactively based on needs instead of proactively based on expected needs

That's not an advantage.

Glamor has all morning to prevent damage.

Lore has to be the one that times it, being within 60' of an AoE creature, and not being stunned or knocked unconscious, and not using their reaction on Absorb Elements.

Lore bards also get 3 more skill proficiencies to be used for skills the bard wants to be better at. This falls into the "AND" category that you were mentioning and they do not cost spell slots or BI dice.

Yes.

Though it's half (rounded up) of
3 proficiencies of your middle favor skills.

I don't want to be +1 or +2 at those other 3 skills. I want to be +2 through +5.

If it was 1 skill and 1 expetise, thaf sounds like a good houserule.

In both cases BI dice are limited and spell slots are limited, but using skills is not.

Well, limited by the situation. But yes.

At 6th Glamour bards gain Mantle of Majesty. I really like this ability. It adds Command to the free spells prepped and gives a once per long rest ability to use Command more. It's recharged on a 3rd level spell slot or higher, limiting the ability to spell slots as well.

Mantle of Majesty requires concentration. That excludes using other spells with concentration

Yea. I consider it an extra prepared spells and an extra 3rd level slot.
Which is better than 2 prepared spells.

Though, much closer if you are using a ritual and guidance.

At 14th level Glamour bards gain Unbreakable Majesty as a defensive ability that recharges on a short or long rest. It's not a bad ability for damage mitigation but by this time bards have so many options for status effects to prevent attacks that it's more hay in a haystack.

It's a bonus action with no concentration.

Also the bard has plenty of ways of boosting skills too. So by that logic, Peerless Skill is also more hay on the stack.

None of the bard subclasses grant and extra turn in combat unless I missed something. Tandem Footwork gives a bonus to initiative but that doesn't give an extra turn. It takes what it takes to drop opponents. Good initiative give the opportunity to deny turns on the opponents though, although going first still isn't guaranteed.

Going first is an extra turn. Or deny an turn. Either way you want to look at it.

And no, it's not guaranteed. But there is a good chance at least one of your party goes first because of your rolls.

Sometimes that will be multiple people going first, sometimes it won't help at all.

I should probably calculate the average, but one person per combat feels about right.

Can you elaborate? I find causing opponents to fail checks and attacks to be useful.

About as useful as an ally succeeding in an attack, check, or save.

Handing out the BI dice for others is how they get used faster.

The same speed using them on an enemy would.
With about the same effect.

I don't take any damage from a Fireball if I Invisibility sneak by the entire encounter. Unbreakable Majesty isn't helping open any locks.

Knock helps open locks.
As does giving your BI to an ally who has higher Dex.

One of the nice things about Valor bards is they don't spend extra BI dice on other effects. They just continue handing it out and gain more martial abilities.

Agreed. You can safely ignore the extra BI uses and it still gets stuff.

Dance bards can have 20 AC easily enough.

As easy as Lore can get 17.

What you get is +1 to +3, on about the same scale that Lore's skills improve.

Valor bards go to 19 AC easily enough and faster but Dance bards can overtake this. Barring magic items.

There should be unarmed and unarmored magic items in the new DMG.

And Lore is proficient in 3 more skills.

Half proficiency rounded up. But yes.

Going first doesn't generate an extra attack. It potentially prevents opposition attacks. Subtle difference.

Depends on which way you are counting.

How many rounds it takes to kill. Or how many rounds it takes to die.

Because if you can take 3 rounds before dropping, the going first means you have 3 turns instead of 2.

An initiative bonus is a strong ability no matter how we look at it though.

IMO, the strongest level 6 feature (excluding Valor multiclass).

Of it was something else, I would put Valor above Dance.

 

[Seramus]

And the out of combat Valor Bard abilities are...

Just minor things like Defense Inspiration, Medium Armor, and Shields helping against attack traps or gauntlets.

 

[Ashrym]

If your party has a twilight cleric, artillery Artificer, a world tree barbarian, and a glory paladin, and you took inspiring leader, then sure.

I'm not sure why the party needs all those thp givers. The thp won't stack for them. But Cutting Words can be used with any of them.

Glamor bard will have to use beguiling magic instead.

The Glamour bard should also be using Beguiling Magic. It's a useful ability. It just also takes away from BI dice like a lot of other bard abilities. To paraphrase you're next statement though, "If there's a target within 60' and if the bard still has spell slots."

All bards use abilities within range limitations. This isn't an issue specific to Lore bards or Cutting Words.

IF there has a creature within 60'

Yup. And if the attacker is out of that range the bard will do something else. The valid portion of this is that the party is more likely to be in range more often than the enemies, but at the end of the day it depends on how many opportunities come up, not the possibility of range issues in a given moment.

IF it deals AoE damage

If they aren't doing AoE damage then it's moot point on not needing to use Cutting Words to prevent AoE damage. It's not like someone will try to prevent damage that doesn't exist.

The main sources of AoE damage off the top of my head are spells and breath weapons. Both exist often enough.

IF there are 11+ creatures in the zone THEN Cutting words prevents a little more damage.

At 3rd level when there are more than 7+ creatures Cutting Words will prevent a little more damage for each creature over. As the Glamour bard increases CHA this changes later.

I would hardly call that every time though. You could easily go though a day without any AoE's. Or the wizard is 80' away.

It's every time in which that scenario occurs. Every time the Lore bard uses Cutting Words to prevent 5 damage from an AoE the total is more damage saved for every creature above twice the number of targets for Mantle of Inspiration.

It doesn't matter that there are also times when that cannot happen. Those times don't erase the times where this does happen.

If only 2 creatures are hit in the blast, then it's more of a 4:1 ratio.

If only 2 creatures are in the blast saving Cutting Words for a better time also makes more sense unless there's a reason it needs to be used there. If there's a reason it's needed to be used and is then that's never a poor use.

Preventing 5 out of 20 damage to a 1 HP Owl familiar doesn't count as useful damage reduction.

Sure, but that doesn't erase the other familiars, mounts, and animal companions also mentioned. Not being able to include that same Owl familiar with 10 thp isn't going to save it either, and even if the Owl familiar was given those 10 thp the Owl familar still wouldn't be saved.

If neither ability saves the Owl familiar that Own familiar is irrelevant.

Giving a 13 HP horse 10 THP might though.

Except that doesn't happen because the limited number of targets prioritizes PC's. Cutting Words as a reaction can save that horse who wouldn't have been given the thp in the first place from a Shatter spell instead or Winter Wolf breath.

but your perfect scenario has only 1 chance to apply a BI.

Not sure why you're calling it a perfect scenario. The only restriction is the Lore bard needs to be within 60' of the creature rolling the damage. That's not exactly a rare occurrence.

That one chance to use the reaction to apply the BI dice is also still one more chance than the no chance a Glamour bard can use Mantle of Inspiration on another creature's turn.

So you need to be hit in a very narrow window of damage and that one roll needs to be within that window.

Not that narrow and only relevant if there are no opportunities to use Cutting Words that way, in which case the BI dice will be used in other ways. Not needing to use Cutting Words like that just saves BI dice for other things. That's not a drawback when Cutting Words can also be used for other things too.

Under more normal circumstances, where you take damage over multiple turns and have multiple rolls, it will average out more.

I gave averages. Cutting Words isn't more swingy than Mantle Inspiration. Mantle of Inspiration is more swingy because of the wider thp spread. Cutting Words can only deviate 2.5 points off average while Mantle of Inspiration can deviate 5 points off average.

If they are not within 60', they are not in the same AoE (except Meteor swarm)

The Lore bard can be 150' from the targets of the Fireball or other AoE and it wouldn't matter. The bard needs to be within range of the creature rolling the damage. If it's a huge area like Meteor Swarm that damage reduction applies to everything in that entire area.

The way to get in range is through either skills, or spells, or a combination of both. These are options better available to the Lore bard than the Glamour bard because of the wider selection of skills and the wider selection of spells.

The creatures probably won't survive the Meteor Swarm but this damage reduction also would apply to structures taking damage such as walls, drawbridges, or catapults. That might make a difference in damage to structures that cannot be given thp by the Glamour bard. I doubt that Cutting Words would save structures from that damage (I would have to check the damage thresholds of those structures) but that's something else Cutting Words can do in other scenarios that thp cannot.

Giving 5 creatures 10 thp in that same area isn't doing anything there either.

"AoE damage while clumped up in a large group" is a lot less common than "damage".

I don't disagree. One of the issues is that the Glamour bard still chose 3 or 4 or 5 targets for those thp, however, and Mantle of Inspiration does nothing for the other creatures who were not selected.

Glamor has other uses for BI as well. Like movement, or charming people.

All bards have other uses for BI dice. The movement portion of Mantle of Inspiration is good, but it precludes using those points in advance like you described.

So giving them 10 THP will ensure they survive at least 1 Fireball.

Which "they" were given those 10 thp and which weren't? The limited number of targets precludes granting those thp to everyone. Everyone who did not receive those thp cannot gain any benefit from Mantle of Inspiration while the way Cutting Words works anyone can receive damage reduction.

A limited selection of targets tends to prioritize PC's.

Cutting Words might help.

And Mantle of Inspiration can't help anyone not selected to have been granted those thp.

And a 3 or better will work for THP.

Only if the Glamour bard actually selected that familiar as a recipient of those thp in the first place. Selecting that familiar is not selecting another target so one of the two won't benefit from thp.

Your still assuming everyone is group in fireball formation.

Fireball is a pretty big area for catching targets. The issue I'm seeing is you seem to be applying thp to everyone when it's limited to 3 or 4 or 5 targets per use.

But again. If you got a twilight cleri that everyone is next to, and your fighting AoE using undead that are immune to charm and frightened, the Lore will be better than Glamor.

And vice versa at other times. I'm not arguing against the Glamour bard. I'm arguing that the Lore bard works well within the framework that I would use that college. All the bard colleges in the 2024 PHB work for me with different advantages in different scenarios.

I think the Glamour bard changes are also very good, but I don't think they'll outshine other bards who play to their own styles. I do think there's more system mastery involved in understanding how to do that with some of them, though.

But most campaigns, most of the time, it's not.

Lore bard can cater to the skills in any campaign. Cutting Words has uses regardless and if they don't come up the standard BI uses are still good.

Where I think Glamour is the best is in it's focus as an enchanter / illusion caster, and the ability to spam Command looks like a bard version of Arcane Recovery or Font of Magic with a poetic license spin on it. The same with Beguiling Magic being vaguely reminiscent of Twin Spell. Glamour bards can fuel a lot of Command spells, no doubts.

Command spells and charm and thp aren't always the answer though. IME the flexibility that comes in skills without a finite resource cost outside of the action economy can do a lot. Lore bards are proficient in about half the skills, still proficient in the other half like all bards, expert in 2 and later 4 like all bards, but can add to their own checks or penalize enemy checks in ways not available to other bards.

It's the same with spells. Glamour gains 3 spells always prepped (Charm Person, Command, Mirror Image) and spell-like abilities. Those are useful spells and abilities. But they're limited to those spells where Magical Discoveries is not.

I find the Glamour bard abilities very good, but also restrictive in comparison.

You said reducing AoE damage was it's best use.

I don't recall calling it the best use and was only giving a useful use for comparison, but I'm not going back to look, lol. If I gave that impression I wasn't clear and this should have helped clarify. ;-)

But let's look at a best case, making a Terrasque biggest attack miss.

That's 36 damage.
Vs
13*5 = 65 THP

The Tarrasque hitting any of the thp recipients is only 10 hp mitigated instead of 36 hp for that target, which is a big difference, and Mantle of Inspiration did nothing for any target not selected to gain those thp. 3 or 4 or 5 targets.

Not sure why you need to predict it.
Do they have THP?
If no, give them THP.

It's because there's a limited selection of target for Mantle of Inspiration. If the Glamour bard is giving thp to those targets and using Mantle of Inspiration again for more targets then we've thrown off the comparison by using 2 BI uses for Glamour to 1 BI use for Lore.

Glamour bards can do that but they'll burn through BI uses even faster. We can't say Glamour is better because they used twice as many BI uses to hand out more thp to more targets. At that point we should be comparing Mantle of Inspiration to 2 uses of Cutting Words used that way.

It will still be there when they take damage 2 hours later.

Which "they"? There are still only so many targets.

Not sure why we are comparing base features to subclass features.

Because you brought up Jack of all Trades as being a negative for Lore bards for some reason. My argument is that a bigger bonus is a bigger bonus therefore better because I'll use it. As much as I can in the actions I take.

If you want to be stealthy, take Stealth as your background and Expertise it at level 2.

That's a solid choice. And I'll still be better at it if I can change my failure into a success because I'll fail less often.

Then Lore gives you your next choices at level 3. You need to wait till level 9 before you can get expertise in your Lore gained skills.

Lore gives more bonuses before before that with the proficiency bonus than with the Jack of all Trades bonus. What I tend to do is let Jack of all Trades supplement skill proficiencies in which I have high ability scores and take proficiency where I have lower ability scores for well rounded bonuses in most checks I'll make. Expertise is added to what I want to excel at. Peerless Skill corrects failures.

No. Lore bards are better at more skills.

No. Lore bard are better at most skills and excel at what I want that way. What you quoted was a general reference and not intended as a comparison to other bards in that comment. Compared to other bards Lore bards are better at more skills and have a better spell selection to complement them, and with Peerless Skill Lore bards become better than other bards at all skills at the cost of BI dice.

Which skills is a player choice for desirable skills.

Not till 14 do they get better at your favorite skill.

All skills. Any check that fails can be rolled on.

But Glamor also has a free use of their features.

It's a free use of Beguiling Magic and a free use of Mantle of Majesty. That inflicting either Charmed or Frightened on 1 target while using a spell slot that isn't free, and giving up concentration to spam 3 or 4 or 5 Command spells depending on how the combat goes.

Those are good freebies but they're used within the association of another cost, and also cost afterwords.

Using a better bonus on 3 skill proficiencies costs nothing and can be used a lot because players have agency in their actions. Magical Discoveries only costs resources by choice. Cantrips and Rituals are valid choices. Taking Fireball or Spiritual Guardians is just as valid if the Lore bard wants it and the player thinks the spell slot cost is worth having that option. This is something the player controls in building the PC.

Thing is, when you grant movment, you also grant THP.

And then the Glamour bard is back to 3 or 4 or 5 target the rest of whom don't receive thp until the Glamour bard uses another bonus action and another BI. Those targets who did not receive thp at that time can take damage in the meantime.

We also shouldn't compare 2 BI uses on Mantle of Inspiration to 1 use of BI on Cutting Words.

Glamor can use 4 abilities.

And Glamour has 3 BI dice to spend on these abilities. They get one free Charmed or Frighted effect on 1 target.

That's not an advantage.

That is an advantage. Cutting Words can prevent damage off turn after thp are used up and prevent dropping to 0 hp while the Glamour bard needs to wait their turn to renew thp.

If it's a single target then Cutting Words can prevent more single target damage to that target than that single target's thp can absorb.

If it's a target to whom thp was not provided under the 3 or 4 or 5 targets then Cutting Words can prevent damage that Mantle of Inspiration wasn't helping at all.

Glamor has all morning to prevent damage.

By spending more BI dice than the Lore bard needs to spend and up to that same single target limit.

Lore has to be the one that times it, being within 60' of an AoE creature, and not being stunned or knocked unconscious, and not using their reaction on Absorb Elements.

Getting close and hiding isn't difficult for any bard, tbh. The difference is at high levels the Lore bard has a degree of protection for failing that other bards don't have.

Though it's half (rounded up) of

Which is better.

3 proficiencies of your middle favor skills.

"Middle favor" is meaningless if I want those skills and use them.

If it was 1 skill and 1 expetise, thaf sounds like a good houserule.

It doesn't bother me to use a feat if I want more expertise. I'd rather have the 3 skill proficiencies. If you like that as a house rule a better one would be to give the player a choice between the two options.

Well, limited by the situation. But yes.

The idea is I'm picking skill proficiencies I want to use and therefore I'm going to deliberately take actions to that will use those skills. If a player selects skills to use they'll take actions that use them.

Yea. I consider it an extra prepared spells and an extra 3rd level slot.
Which is better than 2 prepared spells.

Mantle of Majesty is good for it's use. I don't disagree that it's the equivalent a bonus 3rd level spell and a 3rd level slot. It's not the same as adding Guidance and Leomund's Tiny Hut, but I'd still argue that 2 more spells prepped with that much choice in selection is always going to be worthwhile because as levels increase and spells prepped do so do the spell slots to use that wider variety.

It's a bonus action with no concentration.

Limited by short rests. It's good too, but lacking in versatility.

Also the bard has plenty of ways of boosting skills too. So by that logic, Peerless Skill is also more hay on the stack.

This is where I think people are missing the point. Peerless skill is nice to have a large personal bonus but it's the fact it isn't used if the attempt still fails that makes the difference.

At the end of the day every use of Peerless skill has turned a failure into a success. If the actual check still fails, which is possible, the BI use isn't lost and carries over to the next use so each BI die that gets used has worked.

If the bard gives the fighter BI and he fighter rolls and fails the fighter has a choice of using that BI or not. The player is going to make a reasonable assumption that using the BI has a good chance of changing that to a success. A reasonable assumption might be 7/10 chance (it's a d10 at that level) although some players might play it riskier. That fighter still has a 30% chance of failing and a 70% chance of changing that failure into a success.

At the end of the day based on those assumptions the Lore bard had 100% success rate on all checks using Peerless Skill and that fighter lost 30% of all checks using Bardic Inspiration.

Being reasonably good at a lot of check (not the highest numbers) allow for a lot of variety in all skills with Peerless skill to fall back on.

Going first is an extra turn. Or deny an turn. Either way you want to look at it.

I think we're looking at that like Rorschach images where the perception is just inverted. Seems semantic.

And no, it's not guaranteed. But there is a good chance at least one of your party goes first because of your rolls.

It's also dependent on how they can take advantage of going first. Still a good ability though, for sure.

About as useful as an ally succeeding in an attack, check, or save.

Not if you need that enemy to fail. A Dispel Magic check, for example.

The same speed using them on an enemy would.

Maybe, but using them on an enemy in that way is still not an option for other bards. Cutting Words is used on an enemy as appropriate. BI dice handed out to the party are done so in more numbers in anticipation of what might be needed.

But I also hand out BI to the party so they can get used up fast.

With about the same effect.

Disagree. Bardic Inspiration on a party member versus Cutting Words on an opponent are roughly the same power level but opposite effects, and the difference between Bardic Inspiration and Peerless Skill extra uses for checks that still failed.

Knock helps open locks.

Not on my stealthy bard it doesn't. Knock defeats the purpose of stealthy.

Opening locks with skills also saves me that 2nd level spell slot to use for something else. If I had to rely on Knock then 8 locks just cost me 8 spell slots and alerted everything within 300' repeatedly. Knock has drawbacks and is only situationally useful over just picking a lock.

Using skills when skill will do the job is how bards save on spell slots. Using spells that complement skills (like Invisibility and Stealth) is how bards leverage that synergy. That's why Charm is useful on Glamour bards. They get free charm and can use the skills that complement it.

With Lore bards, more skill proficiencies gives the potential for needing to use less spell slots and more of that synergy with those skill proficiencies and bonus spells from Magical Discoveries.

As does giving your BI to an ally who has higher Dex.

How does that 18 or 20 DEX with a better +1 or +2 matter more than the +2 or +3 bonus from the extra skill proficiencies? It's a smaller bonus in just as many skills.

For this to matter the ally has to have a better bonus in the first place and with the Glamour bard that BI die can still be lost. With the Lore bard doing it themself it's either a success or the BI die is still available.

16 DEX with proficiency in both Sleight of Hand and Thieves' Tools for advantage and Guidance seems like it's covered with or without needing Peerless Skill, but that's also there if needed.

There might be a suitable ally to match that, but players don't always build the other players' characters.

As easy as Lore can get 17.

Lore or Glamor get that with only 1 feat if they go for it. Otherwise it's 15 AC typically. Plus whatever magic. It's easier for a Lore or Glamour bard to get that 17 but if the Dance bard is going to use those ability score anyway then it's just there as a side effect of building those attributes.

What you get is +1 to +3, on about the same scale that Lore's skills improve.

Not quite. The Dance bard AC is going up with DEX and CHA. These ability scores also increase skill bonuses. The Lore bard's skill bonuses are also increasing with ability scores as well as proficiency bonus.

It's the smaller numbers can still add up approach.

There should be unarmed and unarmored magic items in the new DMG.

I don't have that so cannot comment.

Half proficiency rounded up. But yes.

No the Lore bard is fully proficient in 3 more skills, which numerically grants an additional bonus 2-3 points better. It's the total bonus I'm going to look at. +3, +4, and +5 (the 3 that cover most of the game) are better than the +1 or +2 that Jack of all Trades gives most of the game.

But if we consider Jack of all Trades a proficiency bonus that should also give every 2nd level bard advantage on related Tools that use the same proficiency. That might need clarification because it would make Jack of all Trades a little better than I was thinking.

Depends on which way you are counting.

I assume the party will live instead of die. Therefore, I count to the death of the opponents. This means the opponents die and lose their last turns. That's how I see it.

IMO, the strongest level 6 feature (excluding Valor multiclass).

6 levels can be rough multiclassing. I bet the first 6 or 7 levels are fine though. Maybe even 8 levels.

Of it was something else, I would put Valor above Dance.

I don't bother ranking them. I look at what they can do and how I could or would use that.

 

[Valetudo]

I'm not reading that. Man they are all good subclasses on the bard. I prefer the valor bard myself.

 

[Ashrym]

I'm not reading that. Man they are all good subclasses on the bard. I prefer the valor bard myself.

You don't need to read it, lol. You just summarized it.