D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?

[Xenolith234]

What about not-default 5e? Must we always assume we're talking about WotC's game? No matter the label most of these thread topics apply equally well to other games.

Absolutely not - A5e provides far more of the exploration tier than default 5e. But when folks talk about balancing the Ranger, I assume that they're talking about default 5e's ranger, which is lackluster. Those who are running ToA in Adventure League wouldn't be able to use the A5e tools, which leaves them with nothing in the realm of exploration and a mechanically-sad character with very little to do outside of combat.

 

[Xenolith234]

i agree that (unfortunately) combat is the only part of the game that's sufficiently fleshed out, however, i disagree that therefore it should be the only part of the game where your capabilities are weighed for their contribution to your class's balance.

I agree with you! Capabilities should be weighed across the whole of the game, not just combat. It needs social and exploration tiers to balance the characters appropriately. If the fighter could be best in combat and the bard is balanced to not be combat-focused, that's fine with me - to some that might mean that their bard is "useless", but in my opinion the bard should excel in the social situations and mostly sit back in combat. That would mean that enemies would likely have to have less HP so that the combat would end in a somewhat-reasonable time if only a couple characters were truly engaged in the fight, and then we're getting in the realm of either another edition, another game, or significant houserules...

But unfortunately, combat is the only tool in the toolbox that WotC seems to want to balance characters against, and the characters that would be more flavorful in other situations (ranger) are just meh. Why hunt/gather for resources when Conjure Food and Water exists? Or create shelter in the wild when there's Tiny Hut?

 

[Micah Sweet]

Absolutely not - A5e provides far more of the exploration tier than default 5e. But when folks talk about balancing the Ranger, I assume that they're talking about default 5e's ranger, which is lackluster. Those who are running ToA in Adventure League wouldn't be able to use the A5e tools, which leaves them with nothing in the realm of exploration and a mechanically-sad character with very little to do outside of combat.

And that's unfortunate for them, but I won't limit my conversation to WotC only just because some folks are required to tow their line if they want to play 5e at all.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I agree with you! Capabilities should be weighed across the whole of the game, not just combat. It needs social and exploration tiers to balance the characters appropriately. If the fighter could be best in combat and the bard is balanced to not be combat-focused, that's fine with me - to some that might mean that their bard is "useless", but in my opinion the bard should excel in the social situations and mostly sit back in combat. That would mean that enemies would likely have to have less HP so that the combat would end in a somewhat-reasonable time if only a couple characters were truly engaged in the fight, and then we're getting in the realm of either another edition, another game, or significant houserules...

But unfortunately, combat is the only tool in the toolbox that WotC seems to want to balance characters against, and the characters that would be more flavorful in other situations (ranger) are just meh.

All of that sounds great to me. I've never liked the fact that 5e bards are full casters.

 

[Xenolith234]

And that's unfortunate for them, but I won't limit my conversation to WotC only just because some folks are required to tow their line if they want to play 5e at all.

Fair. But then if we're talking about balance, we probably wouldn't end up talking about WotC at all

 

[Xenolith234]

I want to remove Darkvision from most ancestries and add Concentration to the Light spell to balance out the efficacy of it, and make the dark threatening again. I know for certain that my players will balk against this because it's weakening them. Is this such a significant balance change that it's really a problem? I don't believe so.

I had a similar reaction when I brought up Gritty Realism so that I could stretch encounters out over a week instead of a single day. It doesn't actually impact them much at all, just makes things more realistic.

 

[ECMO3]

When I played TOA about 7 years ago, I multiclassed my Rogue into a Ranger solely because we were spending most of our time lost and the guide we hired was awful at being a guide. I was the only PC with both a 13 Dex and Wisdom who could do it, so I picked up a level of Ranger just for the ability to never be lost in favored terrain.

Unfortunately the new 2024 Ranger is much more of a combat-oriented and does not have abilities like Primeval Awareness or the old Natural Explorer.

 

[Micah Sweet]

When I played TOA about 7 years ago, I multiclassed my Rogue into a Ranger solely because we were spending most of our time lost and the guide we hired was awful at being a guide. I was the only PC with both a 13 Dex and Wisdom who could do it, so I picked up a level of Ranger just for the ability to never be lost in favored terrain.

Unfortunately the new 2024 Ranger is much more of a combat-oriented and does not have abilities like Primeval Awareness or the old Natural Explorer.

The Level Up ranger has much more going for them in exploration. My understanding is that TotV ranger is very good too, but I haven't read it.

 

[CreamCloud0]

I agree with you! Capabilities should be weighed across the whole of the game, not just combat. It needs social and exploration tiers to balance the characters appropriately. If the fighter could be best in combat and the bard is balanced to not be combat-focused, that's fine with me - to some that might mean that their bard is "useless", but in my opinion the bard should excel in the social situations and mostly sit back in combat. That would mean that enemies would likely have to have less HP so that the combat would end in a somewhat-reasonable time if only a couple characters were truly engaged in the fight, and then we're getting in the realm of either another edition, another game, or significant houserules...

But unfortunately, combat is the only tool in the toolbox that WotC seems to want to balance characters against, and the characters that would be more flavorful in other situations (ranger) are just meh. Why hunt/gather for resources when Conjure Food and Water exists? Or create shelter in the wild when there's Tiny Hut?

i don't think 'non combat focused' classes should be totally discounted as contributing factors in battle, not to the point that their presence can be ignored in balancing encounters and have to rewrite the CR calculations, but if you're picking one just know that you're not going to be the person dealing big numbers.

i think the answer for that is a matter of attrition, these are things that should be debated if you're going to expend the slot on tiny hut or roll survival to save it, but there's simply too many resources to spend that these decisions are rendered moot.

 

[FrogReaver]

And that's unfortunate for them, but I won't limit my conversation to WotC only just because some folks are required to tow their line if they want to play 5e at all.

To be fair. This thread is tagged 2024 d&d. Or is that term being taken by games other than 2024 d&d?