D&D (2024) Do players really want balance?

I don't think that's fair. I think they "down-tuned" in their guidelines, which is likely to work for non-wargame-y players - those players won't be especially good at the maths or tactics that characterise the technical aspects of combat, and so won't necessarily realise that the tuning favours them; but nevertheless they are likely to succeed in combat because of the tuning, even if they come in suffering quite a bit of attrition.

That's one way to present encounter-level guidelines for an "adventure day"-based resource suite.

I think the game design assumes that more technical RPGers will be able to tighten the tuning themselves, based on their skill and experience.
Well, I was responding to your comparisons between the methods. You listed distinct methods used by OD&D/1e, 2e/3e, and 4e. You then said that 5e has "the issue" (problems with encounter-building guidelines in a game with "adventuring-day" resources) because it does...none of those three methods.

One of my theses about 5e, for quite some time now, has been that its designers effectively tried to abdicate many actual design decisions in the first place. Not all, of course, as that would be impossible. But certainly a lot of them. That was why the 5.0 DMG was so full of advice that boiled down to, "You can do X, or you can not do X. You're the DM, you decide!" without even a gesture at explaining how, or why, or when--or giving worse-than-useless "advice" about it.

Hence, in this case, it seems to me that 5e was trying to have its cake and eat it too, by more-or-less abdicating on this issue. It provides guidelines that are lenient to the point of being not very useful, and its CRs are of questionable utility (not as totally-useless as 3.X CR was, but still pretty bad), and outright breaks its own "rules" on this front (the formulae for determining CRs frequently don't match the CRs of actual monsters), etc.

That's why I asked the question. It seems to me that 5e's answer to the issue of encounter-building guidelines under "adventuring-day" resource structures is to simply not give an answer, and hope that each DM cobbles together something instead.
 

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Isn’t the real answer here “some do, some don’t care?”
Depends on what you consider a "real answer," but I would personally consider that a Microsoft answer: technically correct and completely useless.

My answer, which of course is the only objectively correct answer, is that most players do actually care about balance of particular forms (mostly, not feeling shortchanged relative to their peers and not feeling overwhelmed by the difficulty of the dangers they face in-game), but there are two important caveats.

Firstly, a lot of people care but don't understand, if that makes sense. They have an intuitive sense that something isn't quite right. That intuitive sense can actually be quite sharp, but in many cases it is beneath the level of words and figures. When that happens, they just feel a vague sense of something-not-right-ness without being able to actually point to anything or call out any patterns etc. This is mostly caused by long-term systemic imbalances between classes, e.g. LFQW type stuff.

Secondly, "feeling overwhelmed by the difficulty of the dangers they face" cannot be simplified into "they want to always win" nor "they want real danger" etc. Because, as I noted earlier, most players are not actually that excited by consequences that just dead-end stuff. Yes, that consequence adds tension when it is up in the air, but as soon as the coin actually falls on that side, the tension is gone and the release is rather unsatisfying.
 

I made a ton of decisions when I’m “in game mode” that are normally outside the character’s hands. My barbarian decides that “this fight” he’s going to rage.
Indeed. Which is a decision the character can make. Historical berserkers intentionally evoked the battle trance. This is absolutely an in-character decision.

The battlemaster decides that “this turn” the monster is going to provide an opening to use battlemaster maneuvers.
Nope. It is the fighter deciding to use a specific move at this specific time.

I decide that NOW I’m going to use Luck or Heroic inspiration.
Yep, those are meta.

My cleric prays to her god and gets the benefit of Guidance now, not when it is convenient to her god.
Indeed. That's the metaphysics of this world. The cleric knows that the god will answer, and it is their decision to pray. This is again an in-character decision.

If a massive monster appears and it doesn’t have a fear aura, I decide whether my character misses their turn quaking in fear.
Yes. And when you're immersed in the character POV, you're not making this decision from the author stance; your character is afraid, if that is what you, as the character, feel.
 

No one needs an "optional rule" be printed in the DMG for you to put in whatever optional rules into your game you want. Especially if those "optional rules" you include make doing your job as a DM easier or more fun for you.

If you have players who then complain that you are using optional rules in your game... then you tell those players to F the right off. They don't have to play with you if they don't like the rules you are using in your game. Especially if they only "accept" optional rules that are included in the DMG.

If (general) you as a DM require all optional rules that you wish you had be included in the DMG so that you can use them AND so that your players would accept those rules as an acceptable addition to the game without discussion (thus freeing you from having to tell your players what you are going to use)... WotC is under no obligation to give you what you want. Especially if it's only to save you from having to stand up to and talk to your players.

Needing all optional rules to be in the DMG because that's the only way you are "allowed" to use them is just silly.
 

With the caveats noted by Pemerton, sure....but that was my point!

Even before you begin play proper, you have fundamentally violated the principle that the ONLY experiences one may have are those that map to real life. From the very moment you start--unless you literally only play characters prewritten by someone else--you are already breaking from how real life works. Total avoidance of such things is not only not practical, it's not even possible.

Hence: it cannot be the case that because a choice doesn't exist in real life, that choice cannot be part of the mechanics of the game. There are many other arguments one could make, but all of them must weaken the standard rather dramatically: "minimize the non-RL-like choices" for example, or "restrict non-RL choices to character creation and advancement." Both of those concede the simple fact that, in being a game in the first place, it cannot, even in principle, mirror real life at every moment of the play-experience.
I have admitted many times that that mirroring real life completely is not possible, so this isn't some great counterargument. I still strive to do so when I can manage it. In fact, I feel that minimizing those no-RL choices during play is more important than during character creation, so that's my focus. I also feel that the best place to practice this philosophy is through setting and the DM side of play, so again that's my focus.
 

You can get a hell of a lot closer than D&D (any version) does - check out Rolemaster, Runequest, or even HARP or Pendragon.

Which goes back to my point - it's not at all true that a "will to live" mechanic would be out of sync with the general character of D&D as a RPG. It would fit right in!
Using a D&D 5e-style game for this is a compromise on my part with my players. It's why I play Level Up, because it's the version of 5e that comes closest to the game I want.
 

I liked the post that took the DM factor out of it to point out players generally want their characters to be balanced “with respect to each other” so each of them gets a chance to have the spotlight. That is a statement I can get behind, and is entirely different than “balanced with respect to encounters (individually or in series).”
Unfortunately, nothing I have ever seen suggests that "spotlight balance" is actually effective in any meaningful sense. It's a lovely idea, that doesn't actually work in the D&D space, because one of the classes has as its thing "bend the rules of the world to do what I want done."

You cannot have meaningful "spotlight balance" when one group of characters gets to decide how concentrated the spotlights are, and the other group is dependent on them.

I will stick by my premise that people are psychologically poor at probability and if you tell someone they should win 50% of the time, they think the game is rigged against them unless their actual win rate is 70%. Similarly, tell someone they have a 90% hit chance and their brain turns that into “I can’t miss.” So no matter where you think “balanced” is, my contention is that psychologically, players don’t want whatever that number you might choose is, they want the odds titled past that number in their favor for it to “feel” balanced. This isn’t an indictment of players, it is human nature.
Statistical testing has shown that a player success rate of about 60%-65% is seen as "normal", so it is quite easy to actually design a game that fits human psychology. But that's not the primary area that balance matters in. The primary area that balance matters in is whether players feel their contributions to play are of reasonably comparable impact to other players. There's a reason "Angel Summoner and BMX Bandit" comes up in balance discussions all the time. BMX Bandit rightly feels pointless in his "crime-fighting duo" because Angel Summoner's angels literally do everything, including letting BMX Bandit actually participate.

It is one of the things that I feel makes low level play “better” - hit points are low, dice are swingy, and if I am rolling every roll in front of my players, it is likely one of them drops to 0 hp. Rolling in front of them lets them know I am neither cheating “in their favor” (their victory is earned) nor against them (they are not being screwed because I am angry/a jerk/want to “win” once in a while).
Whereas I emphatically think low-level play makes things dramatically worse, because players can't learn from their mistakes, because the harshness of the consequences ensures that their investment is thrown away repeatedly, and because the swinginess of the dice means that their preparations and choices barely matter--luck will define everything, period. That's not a way to produce players who want to participate. It depends on having players who already are gung-ho and willing to forgive quite a lot to get to the good stuff.

I am also an advocate for multiple failure states, morale checks so not every fight is to the death, and alternate dight endings like if one of the PCs goes down, giving them an option to surrender, collect their dying, and leave. Any intelligent enemy would prefer to save his resources and allow the PCs to slink off in defeat rather than have to fight to the death. Of course, the se one time the PCs attack, the BBEG is less likely to be forgiving!


In other words, more reasonable villains and less “tactical combat to the death!”
Sure, it would be nice if that happened more often. Unfortunately, the very same folks who advocate for the "HP are low, dice are swingy" etc. are also, nine times out of ten, the people who advocate for utterly merciless opponents, and for shows of mercy to bite the PCs in the butt (e.g. you let the goblin scouts go...so they immediately run back to camp to warn everyone else and thus the challenge increases tenfold), and for no good deed to go unpunished while evil ones reap rich rewards, and for authority figures that are obstructionist and obtuse in the extreme and generally just an obstacle to overcome. And then such folks complain that their PCs are always murderhobos who take no prisoners, backstab every ally, steal everything that isn't welded down, and go on murder-sprees whenever any authority figure opposes them.

There is no inherent link between the two, I admit, but I've seen this pattern crop up way, way, way too many times. DMs reap what they sow, and they teach their players through their DMing. Far too many DMs don't seem to understand this.

And FWIW, I have found that one PC going down (not necessarily dying) every 4-5 game sessions or so, with death coming only when the party is foolhardy or the dice are particularly uncooperative (perhaps every 5 to 10 times a PC drops the dice might do him in - I haven’t kept track - foolhardy actions are far more frequently the cause… in one case I took the player aside after the session and pointed out several implicit warnings and a couple explicit warnings he had blown past because I wanted to help him recognize the implicit warnings in the future… the explicit ones I reminded him of but didn’t feel I needed to further explain … when I said “this course of action is likely to get your character killed” I wasn’t joking) seems to be about the right amount for players to “feel” the stakes are real without getting frustrated.
Would you believe me if I told you that this is far more representative of the oh-so-maligned 4e than 5e? I've seen at least three almost entirely separate TPKs in 5e--at the allegedly better low levels you describe. Meanwhile, I've not only had my own character die in a 4e game (thankfully, he got better through the party's efforts), I've also seen three deaths and two very near misses, all of that in one campaign that sadly didn't get past level 5. (The DM had to stop due to a family crisis that would require basically full-time attention for the indefinite future.)
 

I have admitted many times that that mirroring real life completely is not possible, so this isn't some great counterargument. I still strive to do so when I can manage it. In fact, I feel that minimizing those no-RL choices during play is more important than during character creation, so that's my focus. I also feel that the best place to practice this philosophy is through setting and the DM side of play, so again that's my focus.
Okay.

That means you now need to start thinking not just about the total number of such things--because you admit you can't reduce it to 0--you also need to consider the importance of any such decision. It's now an open question whether the value gotten out of one non-RL-mappable choice is greater than the value lost in other areas by having that choice be so. Meaning, "I'm trying to minimize that, so I reject that outright" isn't available to you as an argument anymore. You have to actually defend why excising the non-RL-mappable choices is the correct thing to do, as opposed to just stating a blanket rejection.

Some non-RL-mappable choices accomplish a great deal and radically simplify things that would be impractical or even impossible otherwise. I certainly agree with you that, if and only if all else really is equal, one should use an RL-mappable choice instead of a non-RL-mappable choice if both options are available and of comparable utility. (I don't demand absolute perfection--maybe one is a slight loss of utility, that's fine.) The problem comes in when it's not a slight loss, but rather a massive one.

And that's precisely where the issue lies, isn't it? As far as I can tell, you reject outright the idea that non-RL-mappalbe choices can actually offer sufficient utility to permit them in the process of actual play. I think that it's self-evidently true that such things not only exist, but are fairly common. We just stick a massive excuse sticker on a large number of them. That sticker is a label: "Magic."
 

From where I'm sitting...it's pretty hard to see the difference between asking for "more" and asking for pure. You've made quite clear over the years that you won't tolerate much of anything impinging upon actor-stance play.


Unfortuantely, no, not really. But I've rather given up on them designing the game in pretty much any ways that I actually agree with. If they do in fact improve the DMG, I can at least take solace in the notion that, despite the rules being a massive cock-up in my not-so-humble opinion, at least the guidance will help grow a new generation of attentive, responsive DMs.


It's not just that they are not popular. It's that they are not popular and never will be.

I still maintain that it is important--VERY important, in fact!--for D&D to offer well-built support for this approach. But it will never again be the core focus of the game, because WotC is quite well aware that trying to market a "Soulslike" experience to a casual audience is financial suicide. I may think rather little of their design chops WRT 5e, but even I know they aren't that foolish.
I never expected it to be the core focus. I would like it to be acknowledged in the rules as options though, because otherwise it looks like they killed the version game that gave them all the IP they're profiting from and are walking around in its clothes and calling themselves by the same name. I know that's very dramatic, and I really don't hate D&D, but it really bugs me on a deep level that they keep changing the game I grew up on and loved in a very formative way while maintaining the stance that it's the same game. Prior to say 3.5 they really made an effort to maintain a continuity of playstyle at least. I've been reading my old Dragon Magazine archive, and 3.0, while obviously a different game, operated on the assumptions that you play it like the TSR editions. They were trying to make a better version of that game.
 

Indeed. Which is a decision the character can make. Historical berserkers intentionally evoked the battle trance. This is absolutely an in-character decision.
"Historical berserkers" were people wearing bear shirts. Actual battle-rage does not have reliable historical attestation, and the closest thing we can get is, effectively, psyching yourself up with drugs before a battle. That's not at all the same thing.

Nope. It is the fighter deciding to use a specific move at this specific time.
How is that not the case? I don't see how you can possibly claim that, particularly when it's fuelled by a resource that runs out.

Indeed. That's the metaphysics of this world. The cleric knows that the god will answer, and it is their decision to pray. This is again an in-character decision.
Yes. Because "magic" is the universal excuse. Only non-magical things must bear the yoke and lash of "no meta decisions." It's just another round of requirements that keep non-magical characters in the "realism" ghetto.

Yes. And when you're immersed in the character POV, you're not making this decision from the author stance; your character is afraid, if that is what you, as the character, feel.
But that's explicitly not immersion. The player cannot possibly be feeling that fear. They can, at absolute best, be choosing to model that fear or that bravery. That choice to model X instead of Y cannot even in principle be mapped to the character's choices.
 

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