D&D 5E What is the "Simple" Full Casting Class?

[FitzTheRuke]

I get this, but Warlocks can be a lot more than Eldritch Blast, especially if you pick up a few levels of Bard or Sorcerer.

But... then it's not about being a Warlock that makes it "more", is it?

I have played Warlocks that had Eldritch Blast, but I have played Warlocks that don't too and I have never played a Warlock who's role was just to be a blaster.

I'm sure that's true for you - but I haven't played with you. Every Warlock I've seen as a DM works like this. Me: "You're up. What do you do?" Them, "EB!". Next Round. Me,, "Your turn!" They, "Pew Pew!"

IME playing a Blaster Warlock is like playing a Healer Cleric. It is something you can do very well and very easily with the class mechanics, but you can also go different directions with it as well.

I'm exaggerating (by a little) but I see a lot of people on ENWorld that complain that a Champion Fighter is boring, and I think that CF is a thrill-ride next to a Warlock.

... Other than the RP stuff. Warlock has that nailed.

 

[GrimCo]

Playing Pew Pew Warlock is a blast (pun intended).

It's simple but effective. EB+Eldricht spear+Agonizing blast+ Spell sniper feat and you are magical blaster sniper. Combine it with Darkness and Devil's sight invocations and you are golden. Nobody sees you (disadvantage on attacks vs you), you see them (adv on attack), That 2 spell slots you have, fireball. Voila. Very simple and effective warcock.

 

[ezo]

And a lot of other situations that require the wizard to analyze the situation to see which spell to cast.

Not just a wizard. Any spellcaster with access to fireball or similar AoE spells has to consider the expenditure of a 3rd level slot vs. the amount of magic that might be needed to heal PCs if it isn't used, etc.

The wizard is a lot easier for me because it has a much more limited pool of spells to pick from.

And yet they have the largest spell list to pick their "pool of spells from". Clerics IME are pretty straight forward when it comes to spell selection.

Playing Pew Pew Warlock is a blast (pun intended).

It's simple but effective. EB+Eldricht spear+Agonizing blast+ Spell sniper feat and you are magical blaster sniper. Combine it with Darkness and Devil's sight invocations and you are golden. Nobody sees you (disadvantage on attacks vs you), you see them (adv on attack), That 2 spell slots you have, fireball. Voila. Very simple and effective warcock.

That was precisely what my sorlock in CoS was lol, including the Devil's Sight (with 120' darkvision to boot due to Shadow Sorcerer subclass) and Darkness.

 

[Maxperson]

Not just a wizard. Any spellcaster with access to fireball or similar AoE spells has to consider the expenditure of a 3rd level slot vs. the amount of magic that might be needed to heal PCs if it isn't used, etc.

Except warlocks don't have to make those decisions anywhere near as often as the other full casters.

And yet they have the largest spell list to pick their "pool of spells from". Clerics IME are pretty straight forward when it comes to spell selection.

No, they don't. A 1st level cleric has a pool of 15 spells to pick from daily(not including cantrips). A 1st level wizard has 6. By 3rd level the cleric now has 32 spells to pick from daily, and the 1st level wizard is up to 10.

The wizard cannot count on finding scrolls or teachers to get new spells for his book, and even he does find those things, he isn't going to be finding 22 of them by 3rd level to catch up to the cleric.

 

[TwoSix]

It's really interesting to see why people rate classes as complex or not. To me the cleric is a lot more complex than the wizard for the very reason you say it's simple. You have 10x the decision points when trying to figure out which limited set of spells you will memorize. The wizard is a lot easier for me because it has a much more limited pool of spells to pick from.

Here's something I think of as an interesting litmus test.

Imagine you have a 5e class that's a full caster. d6 HD, 2 skills, light armor, simple weapons, spell slot progression just like all the other full casters. As basic a chassis as you can get.

At 1st level, it gets 3 cantrips, and 4 1st level spells. Every level after that, it can pick 2 more spells. It doesn't have any spell list, it can pick from every spell that's available in the game. That is its only class feature.

Is a character of this class simple to build, or complex?

 

[Maxperson]

Here's something I think of as an interesting litmus test.

Imagine you have a 5e class that's a full caster. d6 HD, 2 skills, light armor, simple weapons, spell slot progression just like all the other full casters. As basic a chassis as you can get.

At 1st level, it gets 3 cantrips, and 4 1st level spells. Every level after that, it can pick 2 more spells. It doesn't have any spell list, it can pick from every spell that's available in the game. That is its only class feature.

Is a character of this class simple to build, or complex?

Simple to build. It's more laborious as you have to put in a lot of work to pick those 2 spells, but that's not complexity. Complexity is having to know when to cast spells vs. when not to, which spells to pick daily vs. which spells to avoid, etc. If you never have to decide which spells to memorize, that eliminates a lot of the complexity from the class.

Now this hypothetical class will be more complex than the warlock who doesn't have as many spells to pick from when deciding what to cast and when, but is less complex than the cleric and wizard who have to make the choice of which spells to know each day and why to know those particular spells.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Is a character of this class simple to build, or complex?

Ah, but right here is the Rub: Are we talking about simple to build or simple to play?

On top of that, is it the number of decision points that is important or the number that have equal weight?

It's something that I noticed when building a Warlock (2024 rules) - they KNOW a lot of leveled spells, and yet, nine-times-in-ten, at the table they're gonna choose to spam a single cantrip.

 

[Tales and Chronicles]

Here's something I think of as an interesting litmus test.

Imagine you have a 5e class that's a full caster. d6 HD, 2 skills, light armor, simple weapons, spell slot progression just like all the other full casters. As basic a chassis as you can get.

At 1st level, it gets 3 cantrips, and 4 1st level spells. Every level after that, it can pick 2 more spells. It doesn't have any spell list, it can pick from every spell that's available in the game. That is its only class feature.

Is a character of this class simple to build, or complex?

Id like to have a "cantrip fighter" who knows only cantrips and rituals, with some kind of feature to impove cantrips damage at higher level.

Imagine a mix of artillerist and war magic wizard, with armor and shield and only at-will magical abilities.

 

[TwoSix]

Ah, but right here is the Rub: Are we talking about simple to build or simple to play?

On top of that, is it the number of decision points that is important or the number that have equal weight?

It's something that I noticed when building a Warlock (2024 rules) - they KNOW a lot of leveled spells, and yet, nine-times-in-ten, at the table they're gonna choose to spam a single cantrip.

Those are definitely the questions I'm asking people to think about around "simple" and "complex", yes.

Id like to have a "cantrip fighter" who knows only cantrips and rituals, with some kind of feature to impove cantrips damage at higher level.

Imagine a mix of artillerist and war magic wizard, with armor and shield and only at-will magical abilities.

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[ezo]

No, they don't. A 1st level cleric has a pool of 15 spells to pick from daily(not including cantrips). A 1st level wizard has 6. By 3rd level the cleric now has 32 spells to pick from daily, and the 1st level wizard is up to 10.

The wizard cannot count on finding scrolls or teachers to get new spells for his book, and even he does find those things, he isn't going to be finding 22 of them by 3rd level to catch up to the cleric.

Yeah, the are. When you level, you get two spells from the LARGEST BY FAR spell list if you are a wizard.

Even at 1st level, you pick 6 out of something like 40+ 1st level spells!?! Still more than double the cleric list even if you are only using the PHB. Meanwhile, the cleric picks 4 or 5 out of 15.

Clerics also have much fewer utility spells and their spells focus mostly on buffs, damage, or healing.

But wizards are known for utility as well as buffs, direct damage, and AoE damage. A well-equipped wizard has to think long and hard about what spells to gain when they level up because they cannot just replace a bad choice on a long rest.

Clerics, however, find their role in the party and a select handful of preferred spells, rarely ever having the need to change them. Yet wizards easily swap out their prepared spells (usually only a couple) on a near day-to-day basis depending on the needs they thing will arise.

And, if you are in a game where wizards gain spell scrolls or capture enemy spellbooks (wicih is usually the case!), then you will have even more spells to go through and decide if you need to swap something out on this day or that day.

When it comes to spell selection / preparation, clerics are more easily defined by their choices, don't change them as often, and don't have access to nearly as many spells when it comes to spell list size.

If you can't agree with that still, fine, but you aren't going to convince me that wizards have it easier when it comes to spell selection over clerics.