D&D (2024) I have the DMG. AMA!

[TiQuinn]

If you are going to use Silver Surfer turning his back on Galactus and keeping his power as an example of an entity not stripping a character to whom he/she/it previously granted power after that character turned their back on the entity, the ability of Galactus to strip the Surfer of said power and why he does not is relevant to the discussion.

Not really, it's a distraction.

Robin Hood is not a Ranger, yet people bring him up as an example of one all the time. Conan is not a Barbarian, yet people bring him up as an example of one all the time. Gandalf? People really can't figure out WHAT he would be in D&D.

But none of this is the point of my argument. I am saying there are examples of these archetypes in fantasy and mythology. Just because they don't fit into the perfect little box of D&Disms -- very, very specific D&Disms controlled by whoever chooses to adjudicate it at any given time -- does not negate the fact that one can take anyone of these character archetypes as a model, and use it as the basis for their D&D character, complete with "Hey, this guy's a warlock and I'm kind of basing him on Ghost Rider".

Once again, the overriding point is that an active choice is being made by many to take away class abilities from some character classes, but not others on the pure basis of:

1) That's the way it used to be in previous editions.
2) They cannot detach from that previous edition's rule to see that there are ways to accomplish the same thing without punishing the player.
3) They're upset that the current edition no longer supports that rule.

And again, that's just unfair play, IMO.

 

[mamba]

Once again, the overriding point is that an active choice is being made by many to take away class abilities from some character classes, but not others

no, the choice is that the option to do so exists, no more

 

[Scribe]

So weird that people are so beholden to the latest edition.

"So, we are playing 5.5, but with the following changes.

1. Clerics worship a God, this is the approved list.
..
..
42. If you as a Cleric act against the tenet's of their faith (see approved list) they are seen to have betrayed their faith, and lose all Spell Casting slots, and the ability to Channel until performing appropriate penance (see approved actions)."

Who's going to stop you? Wizards?

 

[pemerton]

If the character did this without being sure beforehand, the player is an idiot, sorry

They're only an idiot if non-idiotic play means cautious, low-stakes action declaration to scope out what the GM's ideas are about the nature of the setting, the current situation, etc.

But that's not the only way to approach FRPGing, and it doesn't need to be the only way to approach D&D play either.

 

[Demetrios1453]

no, the choice is that the option to do so exists, no more

Again, the 2024 DMG explicitly allows house rules, which would allow you to put that option right back in if you want. Done.

 

[Maxperson]

WotC hasn't given much guidance on using older material with new, but that is ONE of the few places they tell you choose one or the other.

Nice try.

If it's one or the other, they aren't both 5e.

 

[Maxperson]

guess they were not granted by a god then

Or a patron. Hellboy's abilities are racial.

 

[Vaalingrade]

no, the choice is that the option to do so exists, no more

"Hurray!" ~ cleric players who want to roleplay someone of faith and the struggle thereof instead of someone who needs to do exactly what the DM tells them to keep having their character be viable in the game.

If people want to do it, fine, I guess. But the game doesn't need to enable or encourage it.

 

[Maxperson]

A few points regarding the Silver Surfer and Galactus
1. We know Galactus can strip a Herald of their powers. He normally does not, because he has soft spot for his Heralds. However, he stripped Morg of the Power Cosmic after Morg killed Frankie Raye, the herald known as Nova (as opposed to Richard Rider Nova).
2. Silver Surfer is not completely opposed to Galactus . There have still been times Silver Surfer sided with Galactus and Galactus still sees a use for him.
3. Galactus does not see Silver Surfer as any type of threat.

4. The power investiture isn't a class that increases with level. It's a flat amount that Galactus gave him. Essentially he created a new Silver Surfer race and racial powers.

 

[roguish]

Because it’s a game. Most games assume fairness that I’m aware of.

Fairness is a construct. All sports, exams, and games profess to be fair, but that would only be the case if everyone had access to the same opportunities, training, support, encouragement, etc. They clearly don't. We just arbitrarily choose a starting point (typically when the competition starts) and say "from now on, same rules apply to everyone and nobody cheats!", and pretend that makes it fair. It's not real fairness. It's just a convention.

Well, in ttrpgs, which are NOT competitions (you can't win D&D!), conventions vary wildly, depending on the system and the group. Real fairness would involve giving everyone the same character sheet for starters, but no one wants that, that's not the point of the game. So what counts as "fair" in D&D? The ruleset of each edition has different ideas on that, but ultimately it's up to the group.

• If in my group we all agree that the game becomes more engaging and immersive when, in specific settings, a deity can take away the Cleric's spells for consistently and grossly violating their tenets, that's our convention, and it's fair for us.
• If everyone in another group agrees that the game becomes more challenging and exciting when, in any setting, a deity can take away the Cleric's spells for just a minor infraction or on a whim, that's their convention, and it's fair for them.
• And if in your group you all agree that the game becomes more stable and rewarding when a deity never takes away the Cleric's spells no matter what, that's your convention, and it's fair for you.

Fair enough?

P.S. I've only seen a Cleric lose powers once, and it was handled pretty well. There were warnings in game, communication OOC, and cooperation between player and DM. Basically the character changed outlook (character development, yay!), and the player decided to switch to a deity-less cleric (like in 3.5, and now 5.5) with different domains. He spent about a day without divine powers, improvised a ritual, rolled a Wisdom check, and got it in one. The DM later told us it was a coin toss, 50% chance, but he could repeat the ritual each day with the same DC, and we weren't in a hurry plot-wise. All in all, VERY flavourful, and with minimal disruptions in game. It arguably went too smoothly, but the dice decided that.

And one of my most memorable campaigns involved a Cleric of [homebrew deity of law and justice] gradually becoming the polar opposite of her deity's tenets and NOT losing her powers, which eventually led us to discover in game that the gods aren't real. It was a blast.

I'm sure there are many more cool stories out there, and I'd hate for them to get shut down by a rule in the DMG. Good thing Rule Zero doesn't care about rules!