D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Yaarel]

I want to get back to Baklun.

The "who shot first" text is only in one brief place in the section called Mysteries of Greyhawk, talking about various weird things, like Black Ice.

"
Devastating Magic. Almost a thousand years ago, the war between the Baklunish and Suloise empires came to a horrific end. The Baklunish people who lived in what is now the Dry Steppes called down a rain of colorless fire that burned all living things, ignited the landscape, and reduced the Suloise lands to ashes, creating the Sea of Dust.

In retaliation, Suloise survivors invoked their own magic to devastate the Baklunish lands.

What magic was responsible for the Rain of Colorless Fire and the Invoked Devastation? What would happen if such magic fell into the wrong hands today?

A central portion of the Dry Steppes, where the seat of the Baklunish empire stood, is said to remain pleasant and rich, roamed by Baklunish nomads.

The former Suloise capital, by contrast, in the heart of the Sea of Dust, is beset by howling winds, terrible dust storms, and rains of volcanic ash and cinders from the nearby Hellfurnaces.

"

Relatively speaking, the Suloise are innocent − the Baklunish "shot first".

The problem in the first place is, the text blames the entire "people" who live in the Dry Steppes. In this day and age, people should know better than declaring an entire people guilty.

First, normal Baklunish people didnt know how to make the Rain of Colorless Fire. This was a secretive magitech that only a small handful of people knew how to do − whether criminals or a military unit.

Apparently, the retaliatory Invoked Devastation didnt kill all of the Baklunish population, but did kill the ones who knew how to do the Colorless Fire magitech. Because when the Baklunish survivors migrated to other locations, they were unable to bring this magitech with them.

The brief story, which is mostly an adventure hook maybe for spies, should have focused the guilt of the Colorless Fire on the specific handful of people (the faction) that did cause the Rain. To blame an entire "people" is insane.

I think the text is just a poor choice of words, because of a context of a "war" between two peoples. But the Baklunish people are innocent − especially the survivors who had nothing to do with the Rain.

 

[Voadam]

The DMs Guide actually doesnt say much about religion at all. That is the point.

All it says is: "The Gods of Greyhawk table shows many of the most popular deities worshiped in the Flanaess."

Then it talks about the difference between greater gods and demigods and so on.

It doesnt say who worships what, and who doesnt worship what, nor who the unpopular gods are. Nor what religions there are.

I agree completely, all we have is the gods, and the distinctions between greater removed gods, lesser gods who can be encountered potentially including in the world, and quasi-deities with some divine power running around the world. In Greyhawk we have a specifically incomplete list of some of the gods including lesser god Iuz who rules an expanding kingdom directly as a person in the world.

Eberron is not like that though. Even in the 14 PH deity list it has an other faiths list with suggested domains for clerics that includes the Blood of Vol philosophy, The Silver Flame, The Dragon cults, the two different elven ancestor religions, and the Path of Light philosophy. This is in contrast to the 14 and 24 greyhawk lists of polytheistic deities with no listing of alternative religions. Eberron is very cool but it is a departure from the default D&D pantheistic religious and cosmology models.

I personally prefer a more Eberron approach to religion and cosmology and use that type of a setup in my homebrew mashup setting with Greyhawk gods as some of my regional "Old Gods" pantheons in my world. From the text though I expect a default D&D style pantheistic religion in Greyhawk, not diverse religious models with monotheism among the flavors you will find.

 

[Yaarel]

I agree completely, all we have is the gods, and the distinctions between greater removed gods, lesser gods who can be encountered potentially including in the world, and quasi-deities with some divine power running around the world. In Greyhawk we have a specifically incomplete list of some of the gods including lesser god Iuz who rules an expanding kingdom directly as a person in the world.

Eberron is not like that though. Even in the 14 PH deity list it has an other faiths list with suggested domains for clerics that includes the Blood of Vol philosophy, The Silver Flame, The Dragon cults, the two different elven ancestor religions, and the Path of Light philosophy. This is in contrast to the 14 and 24 greyhawk lists of polytheistic deities with no listing of alternative religions. Eberron is very cool but it is a departure from the default D&D pantheistic religious and cosmology models.

I personally prefer a more Eberron approach to religion and cosmology and use that type of a setup in my homebrew mashup setting with Greyhawk gods as some of my regional "Old Gods" pantheons in my world. From the text though I expect a default D&D style pantheistic religion in Greyhawk, not diverse religious models with monotheism among the flavors you will find.

The reason why I mention Eberron in the context of Greyhawk:

The 5e version of Eberron officially declared that it is part of the "multiverse", thus officially creating the absurd situation where the Forgotten Realms gods objectively exist in the Eberron setting, but the Eberron gods might not exist in the Eberron setting. The absurdity annihilated the cultural relativity that is central to the feel of Eberron. There was outcry from Eberron fans about this.

The response from Baker the creator of Eberron to this controversy was, it doesnt matter if the Forgotten Realms gods exist or not, because even if these creatures exist, they dont matter. The Eberron cultures would neither recognize the self-claims by these powerful creatures to be "deities" nor consider them to be worthy of worship. (This is kinda a reallife Buddhist attitude: if they exist at all they lack enlightenment.)


Thus, now for 2024 Greyhawk. The socalled "gods" objectively exist. The "greater gods" almost never enter the Material Plane personally, but the "lesser gods" might. Even tho they exist, many cultures wont care. Tiamat claims to be a deity, and most cultures just dont care. Same goes for any Astral creature.

So there will be atheists who dont care about these creatures, animists who value the relationships with nature, monotheists who have a sense of an infinite being, elementalists in tune with the fundament universal principles, philosophers, etcetera.

Greyhawk can feel more like Eberron, especially when different cultures are doing different things and consider different things "sacred" and important.

 

[Voadam]

The reason why I mention Eberron in the context of Greyhawk:

The 5e version of Eberron officially declared that it is part of the "multiverse", thus officially creating the absurd situation where the Forgotten Realms gods objectively exist in the Eberron setting, but the Eberron gods might not exist in the Eberron setting. The absurdity annihilated the cultural relativity that is central to the feel of Eberron. There was outcry from Eberron fans about this.

The response from Baker the creator of Eberron to this controversy was, it doesnt matter if the Forgotten Realms gods exist or not, because even if these creatures exist, they dont matter. The Eberron cultures would neither recognize the self-claims by these powerful creatures to be "deities" nor consider them to be worthy of worship. (This is kinda a reallife Buddhist attitude: if they exist at all they lack enlightenment.)

Sure in 5e terms the pantheon gods are all greater gods who never show up in the world and the people view them as omnipresent in their portfolios and not beings who manifest in the world. This provides more space for in world debates about the reality of the pantheon at all.

Thus, now for 2024 Greyhawk. The socalled "gods" objectively exist. The "greater gods" almost never enter the Material Plane personally, but the "lesser gods" might. Even tho they exist, many cultures wont care. Tiamat claims to be a deity, and most cultures just dont care. Same goes for any Astral creature.

I think you are making a jump here. Eberron is different from Greyhawk in that they only have removed greater gods and not lesser gods like Farlanghan and Iuz and Xagyg and the numerous quasi deities who you do expect to be in the world so there is a different cultural expectation about gods who show up.

From Rising from the Last War: "Eberron has a unique spot in the D&D multiverse, and many familiar elements of the game play different roles in the world"

Eberron is not the default D&D experience and does not define it for other settings, it is not a model for the religions and cultures in the rest of 5e multiverse worlds.

So there will be atheists who dont care about these creatures, animists who value the relationships with nature, monotheists who have a sense of an infinite being, elementalists in tune with the fundament universal principles, philosophers, etcetera.

Just because stuff is in Eberron does not mean it will be in all 5e D&D. A bigger indicator of what to expect in 5e Greyhawk is based on what is written in the DMG, a pantheon of gods and no mention of anything else religiously.

Greyhawk can feel more like Eberron, especially when different cultures are doing different things and consider different things "sacred" and important.

Sure it could, there is a lot unsaid and undeveloped, but there is no indication that it is or to expect it to be outside of an individual campaign developing such stuff. Even in Eberron there is no monotheism among their religions, even the Silver Flame the closest analogue to montheistic medieval Christianity does not claim to be the only deity.

 

[haakon1]

I suspect the North Kingdoms did get some kind of sensitivity vetting. Because the heinous stuff associating Norwegians with genocide in any way whatsoever no longer exists in 2024.

I’m not a Norwegian citizen, but I lived in Norway as an infant and have been back as a grown up, my 23&Me says what I’m part Norwegian, I have been to a 15th of May parade (once), my sister last stayed with our family friends in Oslo last year, and, most credibly for my claim to being a bit Norwegian, I have a bunch of canned Scandinavian salmon I bought after visiting the Nordic Heritage Museum a month ago. . Yum, good with flat bread.

But I don’t claim to speak for all Norwegians, or even to be Norwegian. I’m just an American with some fondness for 4 different ancestral countries. With some small understanding for the country, in addition to the affection.

Where is the idea that Norwegians are mad about Greyhawk coming from? Seems unlikely to me.

But more to the point, where does the idea that the Frost/Snow/Ice Barbarians are committing genocide come from?

“Huske 1940” is a phrase I don’t need translation for.

 

[Parmandur]

But more to the point, where does the idea that the Frost/Snow/Ice Barbarians are committing genocide come from?

He is conflating the North Kingdoms with the Scarlet Order and the original Suel Imperium, as all being "Norwegian"...which is not in the original text, to put it mildly.

 

[Yaarel]

I’m not a Norwegian citizen, but I lived in Norway as an infant and have been back as a grown up, my 23&Me says what I’m part Norwegian, I have been to a 15th of May parade (once), my sister last stayed with our family friends in Oslo last year, and, most credibly for my claim to being a bit Norwegian, I have a bunch of canned Scandinavian salmon I bought after visiting the Nordic Heritage Museum a month ago. . Yum, good with flat bread.

But I don’t claim to speak for all Norwegians, or even to be Norwegian. I’m just an American with some fondness for 4 different ancestral countries. With some small understanding for the country, in addition to the affection.

Where is the idea that Norwegians are mad about Greyhawk coming from? Seems unlikely to me.

But more to the point, where does the idea that the Frost/Snow/Ice Barbarians are committing genocide come from?

“Huske 1940” is a phrase I don’t need translation for.

Keeping ties to identity takes effort. It is cool what you are doing.


Most Norwegians are unaware of the Greyhawk setting. It is the issues involved that are sensitive.

For example. For the Olympics, the Norwegian Olympic committee wanted to put Norwegian Viking runes on the uniforms of the Norwegian athletes as a show of love and pride for the national team. But they ultimately decided against it because of the likelihood that hategroups in other countries would misappropriate these Olympic logos for their own N*zi and Germanicist racist paraphenalia and ideologies. It would be too horrifying and shameful to see them displaying Norwegian symbols for such error and evil. People are deeply unwelcome to borrow Norwegian heritage to associate it with that kind of hate.

It is painful when our own heritage gets compromised by monsters who have nothing to do with us. The abuse of our symbols is deeply offensive and frustrating.

 

[Yaarel]

He is conflating the North Kingdoms with the Scarlet Order and the original Suel Imperium, as all being "Norwegian"...which is not in the original text, to put it mildly.

In the context of the 1983 Greyhawk, the problem is the close association between the Norwegian kingdoms and genocidal Suel. Then the full on Suel N*zism of the Scarlet Brotherhood reinforces the association demonizing the Norwegian connection. Meanwhile the descriptions of the Kingdoms are obsessed with race and skin color.

 

[mamba]

Meanwhile the descriptions of the Kingdoms are obsessed with race and skin color.

you are aware that Norwegians are not the only ones with low levels of melanin, right? Pretty much anyone living far north or south does

 

[Parmandur]

In the context of the 1983 Greyhawk, the problem is the close association between the Norwegian kingdoms and genocidal Suel. Then the full on Suel N*zism of the Scarlet Brotherhood reinforces the association demonizing the Norwegian connection. Meanwhile the descriptions of the Kingdoms are obsessed with race and skin color.

Right, as I said, you are conflating the ancient quite extinct Suel Imperium with the North Kingdoms, the Scarlet Vortherhood and with Norwegians...which is not rooted in the context. The Northern Kingdoms have Scandanacian element to them, but honestly weak and noen of the three are what yoy could point to an day "these are the Swedes, and these are the Norwegians"...and the Scarlet Brotherhood and ancient Suel Imperium are not "Nowegian-coded" in the slightest.