D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Yaarel]

This is completely ahistorical; Nazi black metal literally started in Norway. I'm not saying that ever became mainstream, but that entire scene was, at least in the 90's, absolutely steeped in ethnic nationalism, racism, and anti-Semitism. One of those Norwegian Nazis went to jail for stabbing a guy to death and now writes racist RPG books. So it's there, even if held to the fringes.

But then, the Scarlet Order isn't exactly presented as mainstream itself.

What I am arguing here is that the suggestion that there would be elements of ethnic nationalism in a nordic-themed is not an absurd caricature steeped in anti-Norwegian racism, but a reflection of reality.

But he was fringe and fled the country. Others are in prison.

I never said nonexistent.

But attempts to exaggerate their presence is a hostile act to defame and demonize an entire culture. At best such aggression would be American ethnocentrism. The defamation itself is hatespeech.

 

[Parmandur]

But he was fringe and fled the country. Others are in prison.

I never said nonexistent.

But attempts to exaggerate their presence is a hostile act to defame and demonize an entire culture. At best such aggression would be American ethnocentrism. The defamation itself is hatespeech.

Saying "Norwegians are Nazis" would be inflammatory. Saying "Some Nazis are Norwegian" is, frankly, close to tautological, it is such a tame and milequtoast statement.

However, back to Greyhawk...the Nazi stand-ins are not Nordic, they live in the Soith and are not tied to the Noethern Kingdoms other than a common ancestry 1000 years in the pazt...and even the Northern Kingdoms are not "Norwegian", nor portrayed negatively (remember that for Gygax, viking/Conan comparisons would not be a negative).

 

[Yaarel]

(remember that for Gygax, viking/Conan comparisons would not be a negative).

This might be a situation where "well meaning" can become offensive.

Analogous to admirers celebrating ninjas and katanas, this is nonidentical with respecting Japanese culture from a Japanese perspective.

 

[Parmandur]

This might be a situation where "well meaning" can become offensive.

Analogous to admirers celebrating ninjas and katanas, this is nonidentical with respecting Japanese culture from a Japanese perspective.

What Gygax actually meant by Vikings:

 

[Yaarel]

Saying "Norwegians are Nazis" would be inflammatory. Saying "Some Nazis are Norwegian" is, frankly, close to tautological, it is such a tame and milequtoast statement.

I agree. However, hinting at a demonization, and reinforcing it obliquely by association, can be more injurious than outright saying the demonization. Suggestions are mainly how hate propaganda operates.

 

[Redthistle]

View attachment 385326
View attachment 385324
The latitudes of the Greyhawk map are known from the 1983 World of Greyhawk Glossography.

They correspond to North America. Blackmoor is in the latitude and the geography of Hudson Bay of Canada. The Burneal Forest corresponds the subarctic boreal forests across Canada. The Corusk Mountains are Labrador and Newfoundland. Shar of Cuba, Florida above it. Note the Yucatan Peninsula of Mexico, and the Gulf of Mexico. The Woolly Bay and Relmor Bay are swollen versions of the Mississippi and Ohio rivers. Aerdi Great Kingdom is the eastern United States. From the east coast of Flanaess to the Yatil Mountains compares the east coast of the US to the Rocky Mountains.

The sense of size and scope demonstrates how massive the Greyhawk map is. Each hex is 30 miles across. 23 hexes northward is 10° latitude. Thus, the size of the planet Oerth checks out, and is the same size as the reallife planet Earth.

Not to mention that the Nyr Dyv is quite recognizable as Lake Superior.

 

[Gradine]

What Gygax actually meant by Vikings:

View attachment 386638

Was he a cheesehead? I feel like Gygax would've been a cheesehead.

 

[Parmandur]

Was he a cheesehead? I feel like Gygax would've been a cheesehead.

IIRC, Bears, he was a Chicago boy, and Lake Geneva is a Chicago-tourist centric town.

 

[Gradine]

IIRC, Bears, he was a Chicago boy, and Lake Geneva is a Chicago-tourist centric town.

Also definitely checks out, though I guess any NFC Central team would've made sense

 

[Parmandur]

Also definitely checks out, though I guess any NFC Central team would've made sense

View attachment 386651

Per my in-depth research, I can now confirm Gygax was a Bears fan.