D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[billd91]

Agree that this is baffling, I wonder if this was an editorial mistake? But there were already things off about the Twin Cataclysms. The Suel supposedly used the power of Tarizdun to smite the Bakluni, while the Bakluni retaliated with less evil elemental fire. The Baklun lands are now a barren but liveable desert, while the Suel lands are a radioactive wasteland like you'd expect from Tarizdun. It doesn't make much sense even in the original canon.

Because the destructive power of Tharizdun is more akin to a neutron bomb (higher radiation lethality but preserving more terrain and resources)?

 

[LordOfTheWaffleHouse]

Agree that this is baffling, I wonder if this was an editorial mistake? But there were already things off about the Twin Cataclysms. The Suel supposedly used the power of Tarizdun to smite the Bakluni, while the Bakluni retaliated with less evil elemental fire. The Baklun lands are now a barren but liveable desert, while the Suel lands are a radioactive wasteland like you'd expect from Tarizdun. It doesn't make much sense even in the original canon.

To be fair, the Twin Cataclysms were always a very vague thing that was intentionally so, and some of the later retcons/additions to aspects of the setting were... Spurious in terms of quality and consistency. Remember, the original Temple of Elemental Evil, for example, was set in Greyhawk and it was primarily run by Iuz and Zuggtmoy, one a Demigod and the other a notable Demon Prince, strictly to increase their number of worshippers and their influence in the mortal realm.

Fast forward to 3rd edition, and we get RETURN to the Temple of Elemental Evil, where the entire temple's purpose got retconned into... Just being a doomsday cult for Tharizdun all along and Zuggtmoy and Iuz both just didn't know about the gigantic spire thingy in the middle of it. It honestly came off about as haphazardly put together as the phrase "Somehow, Palpatine returned".

It's likely that the writers are attempting to expand upon existing lore, with very little to go on, or enough conflicting sources that they're just kind of making it up as they go along, and rewriting things they think need it. I'd prefer they didn't myself, but meh. Also we've no way to determine or even question how much of what WotC now calls "legacy content" the writers are aware of or have actually read/played themselves.

 

[Voadam]

You bring up some pertinent connotations, but I wouldn't consider a first strike with a WMD as a terrorist act in the midst of a war.

It isn't a necessary association or one everyone will make but combining Arabs and a giant intentional explosion they cause (magical, nuclear, or otherwise) you can get some associations along those lines that are not there if they are retaliating immediately after being victims hit first.

 

[Morrus]

And forced to take a vacation from the site for "Discussing religion and politics" by Umbran, since having an opinion that racism is rampant in D&D is discussing politics, but all of the stretching to try and insinuate problematic behavior is everywhere due to politics is... Okay, somehow. Fortunately, this makes for great subject matter for articles on the current state of the TTRPG hobby.

If you have a problem with the moderation on this site, re-read the rules and address those concerns appropriately. Absolute DO NOT challenge moderation in-thread, because that route only leads to no moderation. There are no exceptions to this rule. You won't be posting in this thread again.

 

[Starfox]

The Twin Cataclysms in narrative terms are a placeholder for nuclear war, making modern Greyhawk a long-past-apocalyptic setting. Considering how hot the themes of nuclear war were in the 70s it might have seen natural for Gary & Co to play on this theme. Because it was so log ago, the details don't really matter. Its fun to overthink it like we do here, but at the time of writing I think it was a fun angle and no more.

 

[haakon1]

In the context of the 1983 Greyhawk, the problem is the close association between the Norwegian kingdoms and genocidal Suel.

The SB are, perhaps, genocidal. Certainly evil and racist.

But, that’s one Suel country … all Suel are the same is an assumption I don’t see in Greyhawk. Nor for the other ethnicities.

 

[haakon1]

No reasonable observer thinks that Norwegians are Nazis.

Not that is what we’re talking about (I think?) but short history on this:

• The Nazis sneak attacked Norway in 1940.
• The Royal family fled to the UK, and via Sweden to the US. (There’s a PBS series about this and the Crown Princess’s friendship with FDR called “Atlantic Crossing”.)
• The Norwegian military, British, French, and Polish forces fought the Nazis, but lost. The Allies evacuated. Some Norwegians didn’t surrender but went to mountains. Some escaped to the UK or Sweden. (When living in England, I even saw a Lassie movie where Timmy is a RAF flyer, Lassie sneaks on his plane, and Lassie and the Resistance help Timmy escape the Nazis. I swear I didn’t imagine it!)
• The British equipped Norwegian forces including a Commando unit that parachuted into Norway to stop the Nazi hydrogen bomb project. They sunk a ferry with civilians on board to stop a deuterium shipment that put the Nazis behind. (Books and movies have been written about this. One short book is “Skis against the Atom”.)
• The US raised an all Norwegian-American, Norwegian speaking Army unit in Minnesota, who landed on D-Day. Single ethnicity units were relatively rare.

On the other hand:

• The Nazis thought the Norwegians would side with them, and installed a collaboratorist regime led by Quisling. His name became (even in English) a term for a sellout who t betrays his country.
• I think about 7000 Norwegians joined the Waffen SS.

 

[Hussar]

@haakon1 - Oh, yes. Totally get that. But, again, like I said, no reasonable observer is going to look at a very arcane bit of Greyhawk trivia and suddenly connect the Scarlet Brotherhood with Norwegians. There's just no actual connection here.

 

[Parmandur]

@haakon1 - Oh, yes. Totally get that. But, again, like I said, no reasonable observer is going to look at a very arcane bit of Greyhawk trivia and suddenly connect the Scarlet Brotherhood with Norwegians. There's just no actual connection here.

Yeah, I never once would gave thought of that.

 

[Staffan]

I admit, I had half-remembered a fan Wiki entry: they were actually bands of bounty hunters sent to bring back a son of a Suel Emperor who was busy founding the Scarlet Brotherhood, per the Scarlet Brotherhood book from 1999. They never found him, but settled as far from the Suel Imperium as they could get...

Still, they fit the narrative space of the rugged remnant who turned their back on a corrupt ancient Atlantian empire.

There were actually people back in the day that claimed that Sweden was Atlantis. The basis for this was that scientists had noticed that Swedish land was rising a couple of centimeters each year. So extrapolating that meant that Sweden clearly was underwater at some point, which meant that of course Sweden had to be Atlantis.

The real explanation is somewhat more prosaic. During the last ice age, Sweden was covered in ice. Ice is heavy, so it pushed the land downward, and now it's slowly bouncing back.