D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Voadam]

What Gygax actually meant by Vikings:

View attachment 386638

All right, my next D&D PC viking helmet might just have painted on horns.

 

[LordOfTheWaffleHouse]

@Hussar Prepare to be ignored by @Yaarel

And forced to take a vacation from the site for "Discussing religion and politics" by Umbran, since having an opinion that racism is rampant in D&D is discussing politics, but all of the stretching to try and insinuate problematic behavior is everywhere due to politics is... Okay, somehow. Fortunately, this makes for great subject matter for articles on the current state of the TTRPG hobby.

 

[Starfox]

About latitude in the American north-east and European north-west. Because of how ocean currents work (more so in the Atlantic, but the same exists in the Pacific) Europe is much warmer than corresponding latitudes in America. Its simply not comparable. So it makes perfect sense for lands in Oerth comparable to Scandinavia be much further south. The main effect of this is that there would be less arctic night and arctic summer. Of course if you delve deeply into meteorology, there is more nuance, but we really don't have enough data to say much about this.

 

[LordOfTheWaffleHouse]

About latitude in the American north-east and European north-west. Because of how ocean currents work (more so in the Atlantic, but the same exists in the Pacific) Europe is much warmer than corresponding latitudes in America. Its simply not comparable. So it makes perfect sense for lands in Oerth comparable to Scandinavia be much further south. The main effect of this is that there would be less arctic night and arctic summer. Of course if you delve deeply into meteorology, there is more nuance, but we really don't have enough data to say much about this.

Ehhh, iirc Oerth was geographically based off a the old spinning globe of the earth, so it's not farfetched to assume that there really isn't much more nuance when it comes to the latitude and longitude. Size and scale? Maybe. Also I've been to europe, it is much colder than America in both latitude and longitude. Dunno why, and I've not been everywhere in Europe, but I digress this is pretty well established that Europe is on average colder than America.

 

[mamba]

Also I've been to europe, it is much colder than America in both latitude and longitude.

not sure how that is supposed to work for longitude… as to latitude, the US sits pretty far south relative to Europe, NYC is at the same latitude as Naples, London is slightly further north than Calgary. In the north Europe is warmer than North America at the same latitude, thanks to the Gulf Stream

 

[LordOfTheWaffleHouse]

not sure how that is supposed to work for longitude… as to latitude, the US sits pretty far south relative to Europe, NYC is at the same latitude as Naples, London is slightly further north than Calgary. In the north Europe is warmer than North America at the same latitude, thanks to the Gulf Stream

I've never really figured out why either, but it was something I experienced while I was there. It seems to be one of those things that no one really "notices" and when they think about it they just kind of go "oh yeah." and then mosey on with their day.

 

[Starfox]

I'm Swedish with German and Baltic ancestry, and I in no way take offense over the idea that Trillorans are of Suel descent. My view on the Suel are that they are Hollywood villains. As such they can be Romans, Vikings, Arabs, almost whatever as long as they were villains in a Hollywood film from the first half of the 20th century. They have as much or as little in common with real-world ethnic group as you desire. What is important is the blonde look and the (mainly villainous) role they play in the fiction. At the same time, the Suel are one of three parent-cultures of today's Flanaess culture, the others being Flan and Oerdians. All of these parent cultures produced many villains, who in turn produced many dungeons.

In the fiction the old Suel empire lasted thousands of years, had internal differences that were both cultural, religious, and geographic, and underwent several major changes over time. The Scarlet Brotherhood are the Suel nazi-lookalikes of Oerth, and they are descended both physically and culturally from an extremist group in the old Suel empire. The Trillorans in contrast lost their magic and much of their original culture due to a massive curse during the period of migrations. They learned to hate and fear magic due to this curse. The language of these two groups is no longer mutually comprehensible. They are separate ethnicities today.

About the people of the Trilloran peninsula being Suel making them nazis, it is like saying all Caucasians share in the sins of the early peoples of what is today Ukraine that we are all believed to descend from. But if Vikings are models of the Trillorans, the vikings did a lot of despicable things, like almost all ancient warrior peoples did. Plunders, slavery and human sacrifice was ubiquitous in the ancient world. The very term viking is misleading, it is not a people, it is an activity, raiding. As just as multiple ethnicities were pirates, multiple ethnicities engaged in viking raids. Pirate is actually a more appropriate word than viking.

 

[Parmandur]

I'm Swedish with German and Baltic ancestry, and I in no way take offense over the idea that Trillorans are of Suel descent. My view on the Suel are that they are Hollywood villains. As such they can be Romans, Vikings, Arabs, almost whatever as long as they were villains in a Hollywood film from the first half of the 20th century. They have as much or as little in common with real-world ethnic group as you desire. What is important is the blonde look and the (mainly villainous) role they play in the fiction. At the same time, the Suel are one of three parent-cultures of today's Flanaess culture, the others being Flan and Oerdians. All of these parent cultures produced many villains, who in turn produced many dungeons.

In the fiction the old Suel empire lasted thousands of years, had internal differences that were both cultural, religious, and geographic, and underwent several major changes over time. The Scarlet Brotherhood are the Suel nazi-lookalikes of Oerth, and they are descended both physically and culturally from an extremist group in the old Suel empire. The Trillorans in contrast lost their magic and much of their original culture due to a massive curse during the period of migrations. They learned to hate and fear magic due to this curse. The language of these two groups is no longer mutually comprehensible. They are separate ethnicities today.

About the people of the Trilloran peninsula being Suel making them nazis, it is like saying all Caucasians share in the sins of the early peoples of what is today Ukraine that we are all believed to descend from. But if Vikings are models of the Trillorans, the vikings did a lot of despicable things, like almost all ancient warrior peoples did. Slavery and human sacrifice was ubiquitous in the ancient world. The very term viking is misleading, it is not a people, it is an activity, raiding. As just as multiple ethnicities were pirates, multiple ethnicities engaged in viking raids. Pirate is actually a more appropriate word than viking.

And to be fair, "Viking" is not a word used in the original Greyhawk material. They are seafaring raiders and traders with horned helmets and longships, so it's fairly apparent...but they don't have to be overtly Norse.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

@Hussar Prepare to be ignored by @Yaarel

Mod Note:

We generally discourage the mentioning of people using their ignore lists in thread here. It tends to be inflammatory.

 

[Voadam]

And to be fair, "Viking" is not a word used in the original Greyhawk material. They are seafaring raiders and traders with horned helmets and longships, so it's fairly apparent...but they don't have to be overtly Norse.

Do they have horned helmets? I don't remember that.