D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Parmandur]

Do they have horned helmets? I don't remember that.

I am pretty sure that gets mentioned in a throwaway: but it may not! The blonde hair aspect, at least l, was not in the folio: none of the ethnic groups had wxplicit physical descriptions at first.

 

[Starfox]

On European climate and the Guld Stream:

Climate of Europe - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Starfox]

And to be fair, "Viking" is not a word used in the original Greyhawk material. They are seafaring raiders and traders with horned helmets and longships, so it's fairly apparent...but they don't have to be overtly Norse.

I find the Trillorans to be Hollywood vikings, who have a connection to Nordic vikings, so if I was inclined to be offended over this, I could be. I am not, and I consider the inclination to be insulted over such things not conductive to fun gaming.

There is a point in published material trying to avoid being inflammatory in today's world with people looking to be insulted.

Edit:

Do they have horned helmets? I don't remember that.

Horned helmets are completely appropriate to Hollywood vikings.

 

[LordOfTheWaffleHouse]

Mod Note:

We generally discourage the mentioning of people using their ignore lists in thread here. It tends to be inflammatory.

Okay. Hold on dude. I'm gonna need you to explain something to me.

You have no rule to my knowledge that says "don't mention people using their ignore list". And Yaarel is kind of famous for doing this. So how do these rules actually work? Are they bendable? Are they regularly updated? Is there a hidden, more explicitly defined version that I can't see but you can?

As a comparison, you have a single rule that seems to be pretty cut and dry and straight forward; no religion or politics. Yes? Cool. Yet you have ENTIRE THREADS where Yarrel in particular is quite literally talking NOTHING BUT POLITICS AND RELIGION. And in most of those cases, being inflammatory, outright so. Yet you don't ever seem to do anything about those, in fact "I" received my first ever bad mark on this website complete with a threat of "taking a vacation" for responding. See attached pictures for that thread that CONTINUES right now.

I ask because the whole reason I'm here is from a news tip regarding him; specifically about the differential enforcement on enworld. Can you provide a statement on this? Or clarification? Because it really does look like the tip was spot on, my dude. I've been perusing these forums bit by bit and I keep seeing little things exactly like your warning there directed at entirely innocuous statements that very clearly violate no rules, while you seem to ignore people blatantly calling people nazi's after bringing politics into almost every conversation that he's in, to the point that the guy is so well known for this that I get a news tip about it.

Can you explain that to me? In DM's is fine.

 

[billd91]

 

[Voadam]

I am both ethnically Swedish and Arabic. I enjoy both the fantasy Norse like raiders of the North in Greyhawk and the fact that there is a fantasy Arab type of place in Greyhawk.

I do not feel the generally villainous pre 24 Suel were defamatory towards Scandinavians but I was really surprised by the 24 switch of the magical apocalypse first strike from villainous Suel to the fantasy Arabs.

The pre 24 Suel were, like most of the five boxed set Flanaess ethnicities, really mixed ethnically in most of the current Flanaess with some areas where they were the dominant single ethnicity. Mostly they had a historical migration through the Flanaess where they eventually mixed with the others in a lot of places, although with their historical cultural racial prejudice getting lots to band against them as they did so. Notable exceptions to the current mixing were the Scarlet Brotherhood southern supremacists seeking to restore their ancient evil empire, the evil Suel White Supremacist Wastri the Hopping Prophet cult based around the demigod (with frog associations!) in a southern swamp, and the breakaway viking types who long ago rejected ancient Suel culture and created their own in the far north.

As far as whitewashing the super white Suel and the ones who are white supremacist villainous organization bad guys I can see WotC not wanting those prejudice elements even though I thought having fantasy white supremacist villains to fight (Scarlet Brotherhood and their ahem possible grand dragon, Wastri himself as a campaign boss fight in the world) was an interesting aspect of the setting with decent campaign potential. I would have preferred they just left the White Supremacy unsaid and unreferenced instead of changing things to make them actively less evil. I would have preferred it to be open to both the historical presentation and the current no prejudice vibe they are going for. And they mostly went that route with the Scarlet BrotherhoodOrder still being evil manipulator monks with an assassin network and not mentioning the racial subjugation and prejudice aspect.

But switching the Armageddon first strike to make fantasy Arabs as the instigator aggressors instead of victims who retaliated is quite striking and more than a little baffling. As far as real world associations and demonization characterization having the fantasy Arabs having historically set off a magical WMD like a first strike mega terrorist tactic against their whiter enemy's civilian population is an unfortunate association to create now. It is a small detail in the history of the setting, but stands out as one of the specific changes they made to the setting.

And I don't like that change. Either that it is a change that contradicts the existing material but more so for the specifics of that change.

 

[billd91]

But switching the Armageddon first strike to make fantasy Arabs as the instigator aggressors instead of victims who retaliated is quite striking and more than a little baffling. As far as real world associations and demonization characterization having the fantasy Arabs having historically set off a magical WMD like a first strike mega terrorist tactic against their whiter enemy's civilian population is an unfortunate association to create now. It is a small detail in the history of the setting, but stands out as one of the specific changes they made to the setting.

It is a curious change - it's almost a direct reversal of the information in the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer where a small group of Baklunish surviving wizards brought down the Rain of Colorless Fire in retaliation for the Invoked (and enigmatic) Devastation.

You bring up some pertinent connotations, but I wouldn't consider a first strike with a WMD as a terrorist act in the midst of a war. It tends to be the kind of thing a side would resort to, which is thinking that has guided deterrence theory and NATO policy. Back in the Cold War days, NATO avoided settling on a "No First Strike" policy because it anticipated difficulty containing Warsaw Pact forces if a hot war ever broke out in Europe. It was envisioned as a tactic they might need the freedom to resort to if being routed out of West Germany. So, should we take the Rain of Colorless Fire to indicate that the Baklunish were being beaten by the Suloise and were feeling pushed to the brink? Hard to say - hard to say what they were thinking about this change without actually getting them to talk about it.

 

[Hussar]

Those are not the reasons Egyptians protest the misappropriation of Egyptian heritage.

Could you be more specific please?

Since,AFAIK, there has been zero protest of DnD materials by Egyptian sources, I’m not really sure what protests you are referring to.

 

[Starfox]

But switching the Armageddon first strike to make fantasy Arabs as the instigator aggressors instead of victims who retaliated is quite striking and more than a little baffling.

Agree that this is baffling, I wonder if this was an editorial mistake? But there were already things off about the Twin Cataclysms. The Suel supposedly used the power of Tarizdun to smite the Bakluni, while the Bakluni retaliated with less evil elemental fire. The Baklun lands are now a barren but liveable desert, while the Suel lands are a radioactive wasteland like you'd expect from Tarizdun. It doesn't make much sense even in the original canon.

 

[mamba]

nvm