D&D (2024) Greyhawk 2024: comparing Oerth and Earth

[Yaarel]

does not share this view of absolute geographical determinism that you seem to be advocating.

That must be a misunderstanding.

There is no such thing as an Egypt without a Nile and its inundations.

Geography matters. It is especially true for Indigenous peoples, who adapted their survival and identity to the physical location for thousands of years.

There is no Norway without coastal mountains.


But my point is ancient ethnicities dont happen in isolation, they evolve together. In Egypt, some of the most important pharaohs are from Sudan, some are from Greece (Macedonia). These interconnecting facts are part of the Egyptian identity. (The protests were about misrepresenting the Greek pharaohs.) It is impossible to disentangle groups that evolved together.

One cannot put Egypt by itself anywhere.

Maybe Americans cant understand this kind of ancient identity?

 

[Parmandur]

That must be a misunderstanding.

There is no such thing as an Egypt without a Nile and its inundations.

Geography matters. It is especially true for Indigenous peoples, who adapted their survival and identity to the physical location for thousands of years.

There is no Norway without coastal mountains.


But my point is ancient ethnicities dont happen in isolation, they evolve together. In Egypt, some of the most important pharaohs are from Sudan, some are from Greece (Macedonia). These interconnecting facts are part of the Egyptian identity. (The protests were about misrepresenting the Greek pharaohs.) It is impossible to disentangle groups that evolved together.

One cannot put Egypt by itself anywhere.

Maybe Americans cant understand this kind of ancient identity?

Those are the real countries. The Kingdoms of Schnai and Beskar are fictional. They have elements inspired by the real places, but theybare necessarily abstracted or they would just be historical settings. Not every element of the real place Ned's to be modeled: in fact thst very well may not be desirable.

 

[Yaarel]

From what I have read reported about the DMG section it just lists a polytheistic pantheon as gods of Greyhawk and mentions nothing about an Eberron type setup of diverse religions with clerics of philosophies and ancestor worship and incompatible cosmology cults. Default D&D and Greyhawk seems to be straight defined pantheism and not Eberron style diverse religious styles with divinity definitions unclear.

Is there any 2024 text to actually indicate otherwise?

The DMs Guide actually doesnt say much about religion at all. That is the point.

All it says is: "The Gods of Greyhawk table shows many of the most popular deities worshiped in the Flanaess."

Then it talks about the difference between greater gods and demigods and so on.

It doesnt say who worships what, and who doesnt worship what, nor who the unpopular gods are. Nor what religions there are.

 

[Yaarel]

Those are the real countries. The Kingdoms of Schnai and Beskar are fictional.

Back to the Rhennee.

Beskar were vetted by Egyptians themselves.

The Rhennee were not vetted by the Romani − who seem to now have nixed it.

I suspect the North Kingdoms did get some kind of sensitivity vetting. Because the heinous stuff associating Norwegians with genocide in any way whatsoever no longer exists in 2024.

I dont see how dumping it on Baklun is any better − but the Norwegian stuff is urgent.

 

[mamba]

There is no such thing as an Egypt without a Nile and its inundations.

there is no civilization like the Egyptians in that part of the world without the Nile, but the Nile is not directly responsible for the details of that civilization.

There would not have been a Babylon without the Euphrates either. People settle where they have fresh water and fertile land, surprise... Saying the Egyptians could only ever have arisen like that in Egypt due to the features of the land is a weird take.

That along their millennia of history they had contact with and were influenced by their neighbors is certainly true, but a lot of Egyptian customs radiated out and survived conquest, so with different neighbors chances are there would still be much that remains recognizable (unless the different neighbor managed to wipe them off the map).

This ‘region determines the civilization in it down to the details’ idea feels pretty flawed to me. I don’t think you can say if the people founding Egypt had settled at the Euphrates instead, their civilization would have turned into Babylon and vice versa.

 

[Parmandur]

Maybe Americans cant understand this kind of ancient identity?

To put this gently, I am not sure this is an American versus European thing, so much as an idiosyncratic idea of yours...?

Though if it were American vs. European perspectives, one could attribute it to the American awareness of how fungible and remixable human culture really is.

One cannot put Egypt by itself anywhere.

Sure I can: I can place an Egyptian style culture anywhere.

 

[Parmandur]

This ‘region determines the civilization in it down to the details’ idea feels pretty flawed to me. I don’t think you can say if the people founding Egypt had settled at the Euphrates instead, their civilization would have turned into Babylon and vice versa.

Precisely this.

 

[Yaarel]

there is no civilization like the Egyptians in that part of the world without the Nile, but the Nile is not directly responsible for the details of that civilization.

The Nile is precisely responsible for details of Egyptian civilizations. For example, Egyptians invented advanced math and geometry to figure out where the peoples property was after the inundation receded. This math was then used for astronomy, architecture, and other technological advancements.

Egypt was way ahead of its time because of the Nile.

 

[Parmandur]

The Nile is precisely responsible for details of Egyptian civilizations. For example, Egyptians invented advanced math and geometry to figure out where the peoples property was after the inundation receded. This math was then used for astronomy, architecture, and other technological advancements.

Egypt was way ahead of its time because of the Nile.

Sure, the environment has an impact and that ia a fun exercise in imagining an egypt-style civilization in a different enviroment...but environment is not everything.

 

[Yaarel]

The Euphrates is the opposite. It was impossible for the population size of Babylon to survive in that location. The culture survived by becoming a predatory economy that conquered the peoples around them and stole their resources to keep Babylonian citizens alive. Those conquered peoples were then coerced into military service to conquer yet more peoples. Hence the empires.