D&D General Just sweeping dirty dishes under the rug: D&D, Sexism, and the '70s

[I'm A Banana]

We could make all kinds of guesses about other content that was revised cut or outright blocked by those standards supported by sins published decades ago, but in this case we can listen to the admission & point to the often silly 90's era zero tolerance style parallels formed between spelljammer preview images & spelljammer publication renaming "athaspace" to "doomspace".

Having ethical and inclusion standards that make it difficult to publish previous content isn't censorship. It's voluntary change. "The company isn't who I want them to be anymore" isn't the same as "The company isn't allowed to make what it wants to anymore."

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

It has made me uncomfortable on more than one occasion to find myself agreeing with (topical but colorful) things said by some of the folks in that group you reference since Musk restarted the whole thing because I've also seen stuff they say on other topics. Admitting the existence of a group with an agenda like that is not a one way thing though... and it's the other direction where you see people at wotc saying things like "I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting★ is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.".

Here's the thing. Do I wish they could do an updated Dark Sun setting?

Yes.

Do I understand why they aren't doing it?

Yes.

But the most important thing is that anyone, right now, can go and get the Dark Sun material on DriveThruRPG. If you want it, it's there. We have more access, to more stuff, than we ever have. And what I hate is when people start caterwauling about disclaimers that the put on the legacy content.

Because right now, we have more access to more older material than anyone at any other point in time! If you like Dark Sun, get the classic material and run it! Do you know why? Think about all the changes that they would have to do in order to make a new Dark Sun. That's just going to be an impossible tight-rope walk between the needs of the present and the demands of the setting's fans. They will inevitably anger the blood of one side, and most likely anger both sides.

Continue to be happy that if you want the old stuff, you can get it. And remember that the game, now, isn't for the olds; the majority of 5e players started with 5e.

 

[Autumnal]

But the most important thing is that anyone, right now, can go and get the Dark Sun material on DriveThruRPG. If you want it, it's there. We have more access, to more stuff, than we ever have. And what I hate is when people start caterwauling about disclaimers that the put on the legacy content.

This, this, this. So very much is available now - not quite everything this side of Superhero 2044, but close. I’d have done terrible things (but only to deserving targets, I add while watching Robert Rodriguez movies) for this level of access in the ‘80s-‘00s.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Here's the thing. Do I wish they could do an updated Dark Sun setting?

Yes.

Do I understand why they aren't doing it?

Yes.

But the most important thing is that anyone, right now, can go and get the Dark Sun material on DriveThruRPG. If you want it, it's there. We have more access, to more stuff, than we ever have. And what I hate is when people start caterwauling about disclaimers that the put on the legacy content.

Because right now, we have more access to more older material than anyone at any other point in time! If you like Dark Sun, get the classic material and run it! Do you know why? Think about all the changes that they would have to do in order to make a new Dark Sun. That's just going to be an impossible tight-rope walk between the needs of the present and the demands of the setting's fans. They will inevitably anger the blood of one side, and most likely anger both sides.

Continue to be happy that if you want the old stuff, you can get it. And remember that the game, now, isn't for the olds; the majority of 5e players started with 5e.

Agreed. Really no good reason to get bent out of shape about the disclaimer so long as the content is still available.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

Agreed. Really no good reason to get bent out of shape about the disclaimer so long as the content is still available.

I hate the complaints about disclaimers SO MUCH.

Look, we all know something can get Song of the South'd. Remember the whole fiasco about Community (the D&D episode) getting pulled?

I'd much rather a disclaimer than not being able to access something at all. Especially given the continued reliance on streaming, and concurrent loss of people owning their media. I completely understand why certain things should require context, from Gone With the Wind to Mein Kampf to Birth of a Nation, but I'd much rather have things be available, with context and/or disclaimers, than have them disappear.


Also, I just realized that of the three choices, one of them is ... not as bad. STILL BAD! But there are always levels. Like, nine. According to Asmodeus and Dante. I'll take their word for it. Maybe they need to expand, what with all the bards going there.

 

[DarkCrisis]

It is kind of hilarious that "We can't do Darksun, because it's to mean."

Everything has to be shiny, I guess.

I mean, just look at that new Ravenloft novel cover.

 

[tetrasodium]

Having ethical and inclusion standards that make it difficult to publish previous content isn't censorship. It's voluntary change. "The company isn't who I want them to be anymore" isn't the same as "The company isn't allowed to make what it wants to anymore."

Can't help but notice that you cut out everything but two words from the wotc quote while making that case, kinda makes your claim ring hollow.

Spoiler: said quote

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

✂️ "The Dark Sun setting is problematic" Kyle Brink on Dark Sun.

49 seconds · Clipped by Robert Adducci · Original video "Full OGL Interview with D&D Executive Producer Kyle Brink" by Bob's RPG Radio!

www.youtube.com

It's certainly looking more like those "ethical & inclusion standards" are more in line with those laughable zero tolerance programs concerned more over a ctrl-f word matching standard that would take issue with Indiana jones giving so much screentime to the bad guy nazis that he thwarts.

Here's the thing. Do I wish they could do an updated Dark Sun setting?

Yes.

Do I understand why they aren't doing it?

Yes.

But the most important thing is that anyone, right now, can go and get the Dark Sun material on DriveThruRPG. If you want it, it's there. We have more access, to more stuff, than we ever have. And what I hate is when people start caterwauling about disclaimers that the put on the legacy content.

Because right now, we have more access to more older material than anyone at any other point in time! If you like Dark Sun, get the classic material and run it! Do you know why? Think about all the changes that they would have to do in order to make a new Dark Sun. That's just going to be an impossible tight-rope walk between the needs of the present and the demands of the setting's fans. They will inevitably anger the blood of one side, and most likely anger both sides.

Continue to be happy that if you want the old stuff, you can get it. And remember that the game, now, isn't for the olds; the majority of 5e players started with 5e.

@Micah Sweet going to tag rather than quote you on this... Going from a post about how the harmfully high standards prevents a setting to bringing up the not at all mentioned disclaimer is how a harmful standard maintains itself without actually needing to provide anything that could in turn be criticized for excess. I'm not concerned about the disclaimer at all, trouble with the old darksun stuff & 5e is one of tone☆. 5e PCs & so many of the surrounding rules would result in what would feel more like Kryptonians & Viltrumites playing volleyball at the beach than a game set on Athas where civilization collapsed & horrible people do horrible things in the chaos that PCs need to improve or navigate to survive.

It's entirely possible to deliberately set a very high bar out the gate with the idea that it's better to fail safe even when there is good reason for an exception. Germany gave us a great example of that that forbid all sorts of well known symbology for many many years (with good reason). Eventually they realized that more harm was being done by forcing the removal of a horrible thing from works of fiction that showed horrible people as horrible people. Their solution was to revise the standards going forward rather than maintain the standards of 1933. At some point wotc did similar & set a high bar that only gets higher with the inclusivity review, but focusing exclusively on publications of decades past prevents educational & helpful works from showing horrible things as horrible without ever needing to discuss why the standard is still justified or justified in any particular case.

Focusing on things published decades ago makes it easy for wotc to throw up their hands & just say it's too difficult rather than making the "inclusivity review" maximalists have any need to actively express why the standard is justified in ways its boundaries could be criticized as harmful.

☆Tone is the difference between how scary movie & scream approached the same string of horrible events.

 

[Azzy]

The ridiculous part is carrying a strung bow across your chest, that is awkward for anyone and would regularly be a hindrance in adventuring. Combat, maneuvering, even just walking around.

I completely bought that she was a capable serious warrior skilled in sword and shield combat though and she became iconic.

Style wise she has amazing late '70s early '80s style hair and boots.

I dunno, the breast-hugging chain mail and the nipple imprint and the bare legs are all pretty ridiculous.

 

[Iosue]

The ridiculous part is carrying a strung bow across your chest, that is awkward for anyone and would regularly be a hindrance in adventuring. Combat, maneuvering, even just walking around.

I completely bought that she was a capable serious warrior skilled in sword and shield combat though and she became iconic.

Style wise she has amazing late '70s early '80s style hair and boots.

That may be ridiculous, but the most ridiculous part is the "armor" that is so form fitting over her exaggeratedly ample bosom that the nipples can be seen, all of which is over completely bare legs.

IMO, she became iconic because of the over-the-top ridiculousness of her outfit. That said, there's no misogyny or degradation going on, as she is represented as capable, as you say. It's the worst picture in Moldvay Basic (from a female representation POV), but for all that, it's not so bad.

 

[TiQuinn]

It is kind of hilarious that "We can't do Darksun, because it's to mean."

Everything has to be shiny, I guess.

I mean, just look at that new Ravenloft novel cover.

I think the only reason Dark Sun hasn’t gotten a makeover is due to popularity. Ravenloft was problematic as hell but Strahd and horror in general sells books, so Ravenloft got done.