D&D General Just sweeping dirty dishes under the rug: D&D, Sexism, and the '70s

[AnotherGuy]

That comes back to my comparison with Black Panther and Luke Cage as black wish fulfillment. Black Panther is a king in essentially Utopia. There are certainly threats around, and there are things that could be better, but as a whole his job is to defend the status quo of Wakanda. Luke Cage is a street-level Hero for Hire in Harlem. He deals with street crime, corrupt cops, and gets racism thrown in his face all the time. But Luke has the power to change that, or at least resist it. I believe the TV series used the phrase that he was a racist cop's worst nightmare: a bulletproof nBLEEEP.

These are different approaches to wish fulfillment. One is "What if the world was good actually?", and the other is "What if the world is bad, but you have the power to change it?" I think that if you look at the reception the Black Panther movie got, it's clear that that's a thing a lot of people like, and D&D in general tends to be more about defending the status quo (because if you make major changes to a setting, that invalidates previous setting material).

Okay so this is quite an interesting point you raised.
Keeping the status is certainly a thing with many settings I agree but the enjoyment with a Luke Cage IS the struggle, the constant fight. Points of Light, Ravenloft, Dark Sun, Midnight...etc all have that.

For the record I prefer Luke Cage, I was a fan of the series and the direction they were going before it got cancelled.

And trying to make a new version of it is a frickin' minefield (and also a mindfield, given psionics). I can't blame Wizards for saying their efforts are better spent elsewhere. Because that's the other thing to consider: the question isn't Dark Sun or no Dark Sun. It's Dark Sun or, say, Birthright, or the Savage Coast (which has its own issues, but probably easier to deal with).

I'm not disagreeing with any of this (EDIT) I just do not think the issues are that massive like some of you (general you) believe.

 

[Steampunkette]

I feel like this is a thing people don't really realize even if they know it:

People make openly bigoted content -every- day. People make millions upon millions of dollars by feeding the public hateful, ignorant, evil material in novels, podcasts, movies, shows, streams, and videos.

You can make a -fortune- being outright evil because people who are also evil will support you no matter how cruel or hateful you are. Some will cheer and rally and support you in person carrying signs and chanting slogans because they believe so much in the hate you're willing to spread for cash.

There are people, every day, who grift -into- the hatemonger market and fail because their hatred isn't authentic enough for the people spending millions on hateful material.

The idea that if you aren't "PC Enough" you won't make money is absurd.

You could make the dirtiest, scummiest, most awful version of Dark Sun full of bigotry and hate... And it would still sell hundreds of thousands or even millions of copies and make you a ton of money if you've got a big enough distribution network.

Still wouldn't sell as many copies as Forgotten Realms.

And yeah, there'd be some backlash, but with a foreword that explains that the world is meant to be a terrible place with awful people and it's meant for players who want to be fueled by spite in their adventures taking down terrible evils? It'd be a lot -less- backlash than I think many would expect.

(Though the foreword itself would result in at least 3 threads on ENWorld of people ranting about content warnings)

 

[AnotherGuy]

As you note, all those kinds of materials and themes in fiction are being produced. WotC is functionally the Disney of this media/entertainment sector, and it's understandable that they aim their products for broad appeal and minimal risk of disturbing the parents of kids who play.

We are talking about a setting/module book not a core rule book.
Think Deadpool & Wolverine not The Avengers.
Again, they are not producing for Montessori. There are far worse things they consume all around them to worry that D&D is the disturbing factor.
Again, the for the record I'm not pushing for the book myself.
We can agree to disagree.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Whose creativity? At the end of the day if WotC, Disney or whoever want a particular type of product, they’re going to pay people to make the kind of product they want to see on the market. But that doesn’t mean more controversial or riskier products can’t be made. Just don’t expect it to be WotC.

The creativity of artists, designers, writers, etc. I think a lot of designers and creatives are censoring themselves and avoiding interesting things. Heck you don't even need to be involved in the writing and design end, I am sure many people posting on forums like this one feel they are censoring themselves in conversations. But like I said, it is fading and seems to be getting better. But I just don't think one can look at what has been going on in the hobby in the past ten years and not see there has been some chilling affect (even posters who disagree with me that it is a negative, seem to agree that there has in fact been greater restraint on creative freedom, making creatives more cautious: some just see that caution as a good thing. I think a climate where creatives are cautious isn't good for art in general.

In terms of WOTC, yes they are avoiding risk. And corporations tend to be conservative, but they also respond to the culture. And as the culture has become in many ways more constrained about free expression, you see companies like WOTC responding. I think there is the other issue though that things have shifted. WOTC wasn't a toy company for kids. They made products for a wide range of ages, and had a large adult audience. D&D has long been for for adults and yet also had younger people in its audience. Some of what people are reacting to is certainly that D&D has been taken over by a toy company focused on children and the products are increasingly reflecting that (personally I think D&D is better when its target is mostly at an older audience). And this isn't good even if you think it is presently serving you, because cultures shift. And if and when the culture shifts in a direction you don't like, you an be sure WOTC and D&D will also shift in that direction. Which is why I think we want to maintain a culture of free expression in the hobby where these companies don't feel like they need to dance around controversy all the time

 

[Steampunkette]

That seems demonstrably counter to WotC’s 5e setting practice and strategy.

Ravnica, Theros, Strixhaven, Eberron, Ravenloft, Dragonlance, Spelljammer, Planescape, and Greyhaek have all been one setting and done for 5e. No follow up WotC product lines or even short modules. Just Dmsguild opened up for them.

Forgotten Realms is the only setting with follow up support afterwards in the big modules. I guess the critical role setting as well.

If Dark Sun came out I would expect it to be one and done too.

It could be one and done, sure. But then it's just a question of priority.

Where does the community's desire for Athasian adventures rate on a list of old settings getting repackaged and new settings getting created? Here on EN World there's certainly a desire for it, according to past polls, but how representative are we of the community itself?

And, then, where does it rate for the -designers-? 'Cause I dunno about you, but if I don't actively desire to write something I generally can't write it. Though that might just be the DAVE talking.

And it's not like they're afraid of selling Dark Sun content on DMs Guild, either:

Dungeon Masters Guild - Dark Sun -

www.dmsguild.com

There's not some mythical barrier of difficulty in making a modern version of Dark Sun is what I'm getting at. And WotC being willing to sell the old version of Dark Sun kinda steps on the idea that it's "Impossible" to sell in this day and age.

 

[Cordwainer Fish]

Whose creativity?

"I'm being silenced because of my opinions!"

"That's awful! Which opinions?"

"Oh, you know."

 

[AnotherGuy]

You could make the dirtiest, scummiest, most awful version of Dark Sun full of bigotry and hate... And it would still sell hundreds of thousands or even millions of copies and make you a ton of money if you've got a big enough distribution network.

I do not want my reality to mirror my fantasy.
In fantasy I want to kill things and take their stuff.
I do not want to do that in reality.
I want my fantasy to have greedy, scummy, dirty, bigoted, slave-pushing, racist, hateful, evil villains, empires and gods.
I definitely do not want my reality to have all of that. Sadly, we do have some of it.

Still wouldn't sell as many copies as Forgotten Realms.

Very true.

 

[TiQuinn]

The creativity of artists, designers, writers, etc. I think a lot of designers and creatives are censoring themselves and avoiding interesting things. Heck you don't even need to be involved in the writing and design end, I am sure many people posting on forums like this one feel they are censoring themselves in conversations.

That’s a fine bait and switch there. “It’s the artists who are being censored, and then while we’re on the subject, us poor forum goers are being censored too, and isn’t it all just a big shame.”

Sorry. Not playing that game.

 

[Mannahnin]

I want my fantasy to have greedy, scummy, dirty, bigoted, slave-pushing, racist, hateful, evil villains, empires and gods.

Like Midnight, or Xoth, or Hyperborea, or Carcosa, or Lamentations of the Flame Princess?

 

[TiQuinn]

"I'm being silenced because of my opinions!"

"That's awful! Which opinions?"

"Oh, you know."

Yes, that has become apparent.