Did the nerds win?

[Stormonu]

What were you hoping to win????

Did you want acceptance? Freedom? Power? Peace?

Power, mostly. Maybe respect. But generally, it's better to be feared.

 

[Umbran]

Oh the maths nerds haven't gone away if you look at all the optimization posts for everything from the relatively simple 5E D&D to even boardgames like Gloomhaven, they still have a home in tabletop gaming.

That's a thing that is commonly left out of the discussion - the math nerd gamer wasn't served well back in the 1970s. But the board and videogame space has developed in great ways since that time, such they do a much better job of supporting those players.

 

[Umbran]

I don't think you can say nerds won or lost.

I think the maths nerds lost and theatre nerds won I'll tell you why...

"Nerds winning" is NOT just about the RPG space. Nerds winning is about having nerd stuff be socially and culturally acceptable broadly. It is about being nerdy and not having folks look at you funny.

Comic books are acceptable, their narratives even among the dominant cultural influences of the past decade and more. Tolkien is acceptable. RPGs are acceptable. Massively complicated board games are acceptable too.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Massively complicated board games are acceptable too.

I think they're less acceptable than people think they are. They're tolerated, but I feel like the height of that tolerance was like, over a decade ago at this point.

It's still a profitable business but it seems like they're increasingly selling more products to smaller groups of more hardcore fans (which might actually be a more profitable audience than the mass market given the margins on boardgames).

But less-complex ones and boardgames as a hobby in general are clearly still a big thing, in a way they weren't in say, 2005. The boardgame cafe in Islington in London that I went to a few weeks ago was like some sort of over-the-top advert for diversity - we had literally people of all ages, all ethnicities, people with obvious disabilities, just people from all sorts of backgrounds in there. But like looking at what was being played, it wasn't the super-complex games that I saw dominate boardgame cafes 5+ years ago, it was more straightforward ones with more accessible gameplay.

The rest I agree with.

 

[Necropolitan]

"Nerds winning" is NOT just about the RPG space. Nerds winning is about having nerd stuff be socially and culturally acceptable broadly. It is about being nerdy and not having folks look at you funny.

Comic books are acceptable, their narratives even among the dominant cultural influences of the past decade and more. Tolkien is acceptable. RPGs are acceptable. Massively complicated board games are acceptable too.

Exactly. If mainstream acceptance wasn't the goal then what was?

 

[Micah Sweet]

That's a thing that is commonly left out of the discussion - the math nerd gamer wasn't served well back in the 1970s. But the board and videogame space has developed in great ways since that time, such they do a much better job of supporting those players.

The problem with that is that it supports the idea that math nerds shouldn't expect to enjoy TTRPGs.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The problem with that is that it supports the idea that math nerds shouldn't expect to enjoy TTRPGs.

No, it doesn't support that idea.

It supports the idea that TTRPGs aren't the right place for complex math-centric rules design.

And frankly they never have been - as I said earlier, the actual math and game design in the earlier, more complex and math-centric games wasn't high quality.

There's nothing preventing a "math nerd" from enjoying TTRPGs. Nothing at all. But if you what you want is complicated math, why TTRPGs? Why? Serious question. Why do you think it fits there?

And let's note - the obverse does actually cause a problem. Making a game reliant on complex or constant math does limit the audience, because it means a lot of players literally won't be able to understand what's going on, and/or will make constant errors, and/or will constantly be having to think about math, not the actual immersive scenario.

 

[Bagpuss]

Exactly. If mainstream acceptance wasn't the goal then what was?

Was it a goal? It makes it sound like there was some deliberate force behind it.

Or is it something that's just happened as nerds have grown up and started earning and spending money on things they like and the market responded to that? They have also birthed more nerds that are interested in the same sorts of things.

Personally I've never sort mainstream acceptance for my hobbies and tastes.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Or is it something that's just happened as nerds have grown up and started earning and spending money on things they like and the market responded to that?

Well, and movie special effects got cheap enough to enable the Lord of the Rings movies and the MCU.

 

[Micah Sweet]

No, it doesn't support that idea.

It supports the idea that TTRPGs aren't the right place for complex math-centric rules design.

And frankly they never have been - as I said earlier, the actual math and game design in the earlier, more complex and math-centric games wasn't high quality.

There's nothing preventing a "math nerd" from enjoying TTRPGs. Nothing at all. But if you what you want is complicated math, why TTRPGs? Why? Serious question. Why do you think it fits there?

And let's note - the obverse does actually cause a problem. Making a game reliant on complex or constant math does limit the audience, because it means a lot of players literally won't be able to understand what's going on, and/or will make constant errors, and/or will constantly be having to think about math, not the actual immersive scenario.

Because no computer game is going to have all the depth and breadth a human can imagine in an RPG space, and the math nerds deserve to find their fun in that arena too, especially since the hobby "started" with a significant math aspect to it. Why should they have to move to computer games to play have the ROG experience they enjoy?

And as far as limiting the audience, so what? Does every game have to be as popular as 5e to be viable? Obviously not. A smaller audience is fine, especially since in many games, even those with a lot of math, the DM is the one who needs to interact with it the most.