D&D General Muscular Neutrality (thought experiment)

Is it by choice for all of them, though? Sociopaths and psychopaths, as well as some other mental disorders can also contribute to being evil in D&D.
Sociopaths and Psychopaths have issues with a lack of empathy. But they still have self-preservation. They can still learn to treat people well, or be good people.

These neurodivergencies "Contribute to being evil" because D&D's architects didn't know a damned thing about neurodivergence and made the decision that being "Insane" is evil and bad.

An -actual- sociopath on Faerun would have a choice of doing evil and going to some kind of hell or -not- doing evil and going to some kind of heaven. And thanks to self-preservation would probably make the right choice 9 times out of 10.

Which makes the 10th case a question of -why-?
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Don’t want a reputation for helping others. Helping others is like having a preference for the color purple or liking burritos. I just want a reputation for being a good neighbor. That shouldn’t include a mandate to enslave oneself or to like purple the best.
We don't seem to define basic terms like "slavery" and "good neighbor" in the same way. I don't want to get into semantics, so I'll bow out of this discussion now.
 

Sociopaths and Psychopaths have issues with a lack of empathy. But they still have self-preservation. They can still learn to treat people well, or be good people.

These neurodivergencies "Contribute to being evil" because D&D's architects didn't know a damned thing about neurodivergence and made the decision that being "Insane" is evil and bad.

An -actual- sociopath on Faerun would have a choice of doing evil and going to some kind of hell or -not- doing evil and going to some kind of heaven. And thanks to self-preservation would probably make the right choice 9 times out of 10.

Which makes the 10th case a question of -why-?
I think you are also underestimating the power of "I can always repent later" and the ability of mortals to see the now much clearer and more tempting than some nebulous later torture that they can't really understand because they haven't experienced it. And the ability of mortals to rationalize actions away as not that bad.
 

I don't think so. It can be very rational if you clearly define good and evil in setting as the OP did, or if there is some kind of metaphysical need for equilibrium.
But the reason the argument continues is that no one exactly agrees with the OP's definition. There is no Platonic ideal of Good and Evil that we can all agree upon, so alignment arguments always play out the same way, and ultimately default to the preferences of each DM or group of players, depending upon how collaborative the group is. Frequent arguments occur.

Alignment works fine if the group is fairly copacetic about what constitutes good and evil, but then you have to accept that contexts shift and what your group thinks is A-okay might not be the norm. What Lawful Good means to you is probably not what it means at another table, and almost certainly not what it will mean to a group playing 30 years from now. So the definition of "neutral" will shift, as well.

For instance, take those Venn diagrams above. Did you know that Gary Gygax, the guy who brought the alignment wheel into the game, explicitly argued that killing, torture, and mutilation were fully compatible with Lawful Good behaviour in some circumstances? Yet those would fall very squarely in your "evil" diagram - basically, right at the heart of it. D&D is largely built around using violence and killing as the primary means of conflict resolution. So...context matters, and there is no objective Truth that we can rely upon to determine Good and Evil.

I think there are three viable ways forward:

1. Use the alignment wheel in a vague kind of way, relying upon a general consensus among each particular group. I think this is what most folks who still use alignment do most of the time, and it's fine. It has the appeal of keeping a traditional element of D&D in place, and some folks like it as a broad guide to roleplaying. Here muscular neutrality becomes a difficult concept, but usually winds up meaning someone who cares more about pragmatic results than following any particular path - so neutral, but not very muscular.

2. Strictly define Good and Evil according to the taste of the DM/group/author and arranging them into a kind of cosmic struggle - basically, different sports teams. Here your actions are closely adjudicated and have direct consequences - you can be kicked off your team. This is what a lot of D&D cosmology implies, and I think lots of us use bits and pieces of it, but few commit to a fully realized fantasy setting built around hardcore fidelity to specific alignment factions. Mostly, I think folks use it in the context of the Outer Planes, which are seen as the perpetually warring, Platonic (according to the taste of the author) ideals of the various alignments. In this case, muscular neutrality looks like a referee, and their job is to ensure that balance is maintained and no side wins too much because Reasons.

3. Don't bother with alignment and just assume that everyone has their own motivations and belief structures. Some are more ideological, some are less, and muscular neutrality, insofar as that is a meaningful concept, is probably someone who distrusts all ideologies. That's how I deal with alignment - by ignoring it - but this can add complexity that can be a feature or a flaw, depending on your taste. I'm not going to pretend that my taste is better than anyone else's. I will point out that no game time is spent arguing about good and evil, law and chaos.
 

Some psychotic posts here.
Muscular Neutrality is the "Some good people on both sides" of DnD. It's a relic of some really wrong thinking navel gazing nonsense from people achingly entrenched in privilege. "Oh oh. Too much joy in the world. Need to up the suffering index." "I mean, there is some acceptable level of child slavery in the world surely." How I wish I was allowed to use proper language in this venue to express my utter disgust with any of this.
Mod Note:

Calling fellow ENWorlder’s posts “psychotic” definitely crosses into incivility. Please dial your rhetoric down a bit. Thanks.
 

Some psychotic posts here.
Muscular Neutrality is the "Some good people on both sides" of DnD. It's a relic of some really wrong thinking navel gazing nonsense from people achingly entrenched in privilege. "Oh oh. Too much joy in the world. Need to up the suffering index." "I mean, there is some acceptable level of child slavery in the world surely." How I wish I was allowed to use proper language in this venue to express my utter disgust with any of this.
One of the big problems with this is that it is wrong. That's not at all what muscular neutrality is. Muscular neutrality is just working to keep both good and evil from winning and wiping out the other side. It doesn't think there are good people on both sides. It doesn't think child slavery is acceptable. None of that.
 

I think you are also underestimating the power of "I can always repent later" and the ability of mortals to see the now much clearer and more tempting than some nebulous later torture that they can't really understand because they haven't experienced it. And the ability of mortals to rationalize actions away as not that bad.
I'm referring to people who actively worship and/or serve demons, devils, and evil gods.

Even without actively serving them: They -exist- and are present in the world. Outright showing what evil literally, fundamentally, is.
 

I'd say that even without foreseeing ability, the Muscular Neutral could be justified by anticipating or fearing this outcome. Some people are acting against nuclear weapons even they can't be sure they'll be used ever again. I don't think their uncertainty diminish the justification they have for their actions in their eyes.



The question wouldn't be "why not work with Good" but "why bother work with Good?" Why would your group even try to work with Good? They would be unaligned on the Good/Evil axis, because they don't value Good-as-defined-by-OP as necessary better or worse than Evil-as-defined-by-OP, because they don't actively want to harm people (that would be Evil), but have no qualm doing it in pursuit of the greater good-in-their-value-set. In their definition, knowledge is above all and they think progresses better under duress, which is something that happened in real life, so it's doesn't break suspension of disbelief to have a group thinking it is the case in their world. An absolute victory of either side would diminish the arm race, so they are perfectly happy with a MAD statu quo, and don't want to work only with one side, because they'd be giving this side the opportunity to eradicate the other side, which would be contrary to their core value to maintain the statu quo.

"Yeah, dear hero, we have given the Evil side a recipe for a plague that will wipe approximately 10% of the Good Faction's population. We know you'll call us Mad Scientists, but you're totally wrong. We aknowledge that losing so many people is a tragedy. I am really sorry for them. But if we don't unleash this plague, think of the consequences: the resulting war will bring us the spells to create continual light spells, and mending closet that will allow everyone to repair anything they own, forever, bringing our society one step forward toward the end of scarcity. It will also remove the need for a lot of industralization, saving the natural world of contamination, pollutants, and a lot of destruction since we won't need to mine areas for rare earths... It will suck for the 10% -- who will have a shortened lifetime, but we don't worry for them to much because they'll just get quicker to their Good afterlife -- but every generation after will get much improved lives, and the need of the many outweigh the need of the few. So our act, despite your short-sighted views, aren't bad. They are enlightened. Now, you die, because sorry but we can't afford to let you live, and there is no possibility I'll just ask my daughter to execute the handsome hero, I'll just do it myself, right now. presses button. Sheesh, Good heroes, it's always a pain in the ass because they are always whining "why are you so eviiiil"..."
You bring up one very good point, which that, if there is a confirmed Good afterlife, the value of life in the eyes of the Neutral faction is a lot more easier to weigh.
 

I'm referring to people who actively worship and/or serve demons, devils, and evil gods.

Even without actively serving them: They -exist- and are present in the world. Outright showing what evil literally, fundamentally, is.
There has to be some benefit to serving these gods or else this entire exercise is no better then a kindergarden discussion. There has to be a perceived positive for the people, even if that positive is "we should all die so no one suffers anymore" etc etc.
 

But the reason the argument continues is that no one exactly agrees with the OP's definition.

While I have seen a few posters do that, I think the majority here understands that the OP set the parameters for the sake of the discussion. I have no trouble accepting his definition (even if I don't agree with it, if you ask me, Good is militant Good and would include crusading people for the greater good, but they are explictely removed by the OP's rules). I don't share his definition for my campaign, but I have no problem accepting his for the sake of the discussion, and should he wishes to amend it, he's welcome to and we'll endeavour to try to imagine other reason for muscular neutrals to exist in his setting.

There is no Platonic ideal of Good and Evil that we can all agree upon, so alignment arguments always play out the same way, and ultimately default to the preferences of each DM or group of players, depending upon how collaborative the group is. Frequent arguments occur.

The OP explicitely set his basis for Good and Evil. Of course it's only worthy within the context of this thread (and presumably his gameworld), but the only way to answer the question "how can I have a group of muscular neutrals not to be complete jerks in my scenario?" is to accept the parameters of his scenario. If not, it would be like entering a thread called "Let's imagine what kind of ice cream flavour exist in Star Wars" to post "Star Trek is better, and in Star Trek you can only have strawberry". It's immensely interesting, but it won't help one to run his adventure set in a Coruscant ice-cream store next Friday...

For instance, take those Venn diagrams above. Did you know that Gary Gygax, the guy who brought the alignment wheel into the game, explicitly argued that killing, torture, and mutilation were fully compatible with Lawful Good behaviour in some circumstances? Yet those would fall very squarely in your "evil" diagram - basically, right at the heart of it. D&D is largely built around using violence and killing as the primary means of conflict resolution. So...context matters, and there is no objective Truth that we can rely upon to determine Good and Evil.

I know, but I don't care about Gary Gygax here, because he didn't set the parameter of the thread, @squibbles did. One is free to open his own thread and ask about Muscular Neutral within the framework he wishes to establish (inclunding killing and mutilation commited by Good actors refering to Gygax's defintion, or anyone's). This would be an interesting thread, and it would most probably lead to different results, but it's explicitely not the one the OP has asked for. The Venn diagram reflects, as far as I understand it, the parameters by which Good and Evil are supposed to be defined for this thought experiment by the OP, and which we must accept as part of the experiment to provide a useful answer to it. There is generally no reason to agree with the basis of a thought experiment -- people asked whether they'd pull the switch to change the course of the train can't say "nobody would build a train running right through a pavement at high speed and put random people in charge of operating the switches" -- but one needs to accept the conceit for the purpose of discussion. Within the context of this thread, clearly the objective Truth about what Good an Evil are is the definition put forward by the OP when he asked "given these parameters, give me some good motivation for Muscular Neutrals to exist/act as a balancing force and not appear as completely evil/jerks".


I think there are three viable ways forward:

[...]

2. Strictly define Good and Evil according to the taste of the DM/group/author

And that's exactly what the OP did. He defined Good as "respect for life, dignity and altruism, in a way that an absolute Good victory would bring no distress to anyone, including no brainwashing" and defined evil as "killing, oppressing and harming others" in the first posts of this thread, so we could actually discuss the premise using a common definition for the purpose of his thought experiment. If we don't, we're derailing an interesting thread into a general alignment thread (of very little value).
 
Last edited:

Remove ads

Top