D&D General 5e D&D to OSR pipeline or circle?

I’m dipping my toes into the OSR this coming year. Looking at doing something with either OSE or Shadowdark. Both have things going for them.

Conceptually what I like about it is moving away from character sheets as answer sheets, a more DIY aesthetic, and getting putting the literal dungeons back in my gaming.

One of my group ran 3-4 sessions of Shadowdark while I was taking a little break from the gm’s chair and I was surprised by how much I enjoyed. I’m a SWADE/PF1/GURPS person generally. That surprise is what’s driving my desire to look into it more.

I have pretty much skipped 5e in its entirety, with the exception of running 3 sessions of Lost Mines in 2014. I don’t think I’ve missed D&D as much as I’ve missed that classic D&D feeling and I got that from Shadowdark.
 

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And my point is there is nothing "old" about such advice, it's purely a style of play people THINK old school play was like, but the majority of play in actual old TSR play wasn't anything like that. It's faux -old and an idealized vision of what that older style was rather than what it actually was.

Well sure, but this thread is about D&D to OSR play, so like, that's the whole point? Yes, OSR is not "what was actually being played at every table in 1976" - it's this modern conceptualization to build out a specific play culture based around "world as puzzle" and "orthogonal problem solving" and treasure as a primary motivation of play & etc.

I'm more on the narrative system side of teh house, but I personally appreciate a system level emphasis away from long-form tactical combat; and am quite excited about giving His Majesty the Worm a shot at some point this year.
 

I would honestly love to hear what you've done. What all do you do? I've fiddled with monster damage and HP. To me, that's nowhere near enough to get OSR-style play from the 5E chassis. How do you encourage out-of-the-box thinking? All I get it blank stares.
The blank stares are a lot like the Gen Z stare in the classroom, and I feel that hardcore.

I've found the best way to do this is to create challenges that require 2-3 steps to resolve by a single character, and I reward use of abilities and spells in ways outside their description but that make sense with the spell. The big difference I've found between 5E and OSR is just the sheer about of abilities in play. If those abilities ONLY do what they say in the desciption, like fireball for instance, then you end up having something that feels more boxed-in. However, if you tell them something like "Yeah, I'll let you use shape water to create stairs to get out of the pit," suddenly people are like "Damn these magic abilities CAN be used in creative ways."

I also created simple rules for fleeing, implemented Haven rests, and yes, increased monster damage.

What I've mainly learned is that whereas in the OSR your "tools" are material things, in 5E, your "tools" are your "spell and class abilities." In OSR, you have people planning how they'll use physical objects to achieve that plan. In 5E, you switch the focus from objects to the magicat hand. For example, you can use a spell like "Grasping Vine" and set up a climbing challenge where the cliff is breaking apart. Grasping Vine (and other spells) allow the players to save each other or mitigate failures. Or someone can cast entangle at the top of the cliff, preventing the biggest rocks from falling or slowing the crumbling of the cliff.

If a player busts out something that ends the encounter, then you have two options: 1.) let it ride, which I do maybe 1-3/4 times ; 2.) up the challenge so the spell doesn't work. So casting spiderclimb while climbing a cliff may seem like to ends the encounter, but a cliff that's falling apart and oozing some supernatural fluid requires more thinking.

I think some OSR GMs get really in their head that people pay a lot of attention to the character sheet. But there isn't much difference between looking at a list of spells and a list of random dungeon knick-knacks you've picked up along the way.

Once the players have realized their tools have use outside of combat due to permissive-but-fair GMing, it frees up the DM to create more non-combat encounters that FEEL satisfying. These encounters then force the player to have to think more about resource management, and that makes combats more tense and has promoted more non-combative methods for overcoming monsters. For example, you have a bunch of level 3 players hunting a pack of werewolves. Let's say 10 -- too many for level three characters to overcome. So they think, how do we kill them anyhow? They lure them to a closed in area, say a barn, filled with alchemist fire vials in the rafters. Then, when the wolves charge in, cast shatter on the vials and douse them all in flames, and then cast something like Arcane Lock on the barn doors, killing, crippling, or weakening the werewolves.

Lastly, one thing the OSR does a lot of is it will drop 20-100 potentially hostile enemies, like an orc warband, on the party immediately. I do the same thing in 5E. Players are often unaware of their own power, and don't think they can supernaturally push through these problems through raw force. Thus, they are encouraged to think of new strategies -- sabotage, finding allies, territorial advantages, etc -- to overcome it.

Always remember that humans are pattern-seeking, problem-solving animals, and we have solved some very hard problems when the chips were down. I mimic that idea in my games. Give the player's an interesting problem, encourage use of their tools, see the sparks.
 

And my point is there is nothing "old" about such advice, it's purely a style of play people THINK old school play was like, but the majority of play in actual old TSR play wasn't anything like that. It's faux -old and an idealized vision of what that older style was rather than what it actually was.

It reminds me of the DMing advice that a good DM tricks the players into believing they are on the brink of defeat but then make it so they always win.

And then the players feel great because they are doing so well.
 

It's a shame that things didn't work out for some of your players with Dragonbane. I made my recommendation for Fabula Ultima and Fantasy AGE in another thread, though here you are more explicit for wanting a d20-esque game.

I would potentially recommend Worlds Without Number by Kevin Crawford. It's a bit of a hybrid of B/X, Traveller, and True20. If you want more robust characters, there are optional rules in the back of the full version.

Another d20-based option would be Shadow of the Weird Wizard by Robert Schwalb.
It's a "living conversation" I'm having with myself. Right now I'm feeling frustrated that there's a hesitancy in the group to learn system mastery, so I'm reluctant to deviate too far from D&D.
What I think I'm missing in my life is a feeling of creativity and world building. I've been running published adventures for almost two decades, and that's led me to feeling like I'm not a player at all - just someone to relay content. I feel like a DVD player.
I want the system to evaporate. I want to be able to describe what happens in combat without just explaining why a hit triggers a raise and if the damage bypasses DR.
I know that this should be possible in any system, but it ends up just confusing my players because they don't know the rules.
 

Well sure, but this thread is about D&D to OSR play, so like, that's the whole point? Yes, OSR is not "what was actually being played at every table in 1976" - it's this modern conceptualization to build out a specific play culture based around "world as puzzle" and "orthogonal problem solving" and treasure as a primary motivation of play & etc.

I'm more on the narrative system side of teh house, but I personally appreciate a system level emphasis away from long-form tactical combat; and am quite excited about giving His Majesty the Worm a shot at some point this year.
I only interjected because people are arguing that 5e is incompatible with Old School play, but that's because 5e is a reaction to how Old School D&D was actually played rather than the mythologized OS play many retro games claim.

It's kinda like how the retro video game movement has claimed "Nintendo hard" as a badge of honor rather than the legitimate complaint it was meant to be. People didn't brag about beating Milon's Secret Castle after hours of trial and error, they groused about how the game gave no direction and bought the Nintendo Power cheat guide. Nintendo hard was a bug, not a feature.

I just think the 5e to OSR pipeline is not a return to tradition as much as it's a reaction to people who think that gaming was better at some point in the past and have tried to create games that match that nostalgic style that never actually existed. It's more akin to people who start in 5e and move to Pathfinder because they want superfine crunchy rules and characters than it is taking the game back to its roots.
 

I only interjected because people are arguing that 5e is incompatible with Old School play, but that's because 5e is a reaction to how Old School D&D was actually played rather than the mythologized OS play many retro games claim.

It's kinda like how the retro video game movement has claimed "Nintendo hard" as a badge of honor rather than the legitimate complaint it was meant to be. People didn't brag about beating Milon's Secret Castle after hours of trial and error, they groused about how the game gave no direction and bought the Nintendo Power cheat guide. Nintendo hard was a bug, not a feature.

I just think the 5e to OSR pipeline is not a return to tradition as much as it's a reaction to people who think that gaming was better at some point in the past and have tried to create games that match that nostalgic style that never actually existed. It's more akin to people who start in 5e and move to Pathfinder because they want superfine crunchy rules and characters than it is taking the game back to its roots.
Very astute observations that I agree with.

I think 5E rewards a GM that has a very "open" mindset or who likes to homebrew, as the core system is simple enough that building on top of it to suit your flavor is a feature, not a bug, of the system itself. I would say 5E offers little direction on how to play it, but the new DMG has changed that IMO, and there are two other really good 3rd party DMGS out there (the Alexandrians and Sly's). Between those three guides, you can create almost any kind of game out of 5E, from traditional horror to OSR to hack n slash; the guides themselves aren't necessary though if you can think outside of paradigms and don't have many biases in terms of system vs gameplay.
 

The blank stares are a lot like the Gen Z stare in the classroom, and I feel that hardcore.

I've found the best way to do this is to create challenges that require 2-3 steps to resolve by a single character, and I reward use of abilities and spells in ways outside their description but that make sense with the spell. The big difference I've found between 5E and OSR is just the sheer about of abilities in play. If those abilities ONLY do what they say in the desciption, like fireball for instance, then you end up having something that feels more boxed-in. However, if you tell them something like "Yeah, I'll let you use shape water to create stairs to get out of the pit," suddenly people are like "Damn these magic abilities CAN be used in creative ways."
Shenanigans with spells is as old as D&D.

To me, it's always been about finding creative uses based on those descriptions. I'm not sure what you'd gain by ignoring the descriptions. A fireball, for example, creates a big-ass ball of fire with such-and-such dimensions. You can use that however you want in whatever creative ways you want, but the spell still fundamentally does what it does.

I don't see why you wouldn't be able to use shape water as you describe.
I also created simple rules for fleeing, implemented Haven rests, and yes, increased monster damage.
I'm assuming by Haven rests you mean long rests only in designated places.

How much do you increase monster damage?

For a more gamey, 4E-style feel, setting monster damage to a specific fraction of the PCs' max HP works a treat. If you're trying to replicate OSR-style combat, you'd need to go way higher than that. Something like 1d8 or 1d10 per CR. That way a wizard can be one shot with a hit and most other classes are seriously hurting from one hit.

There's still the problem of death saves, easily avoided conditions, easy access to healing, etc.
What I've mainly learned is that whereas in the OSR your "tools" are material things, in 5E, your "tools" are your "spell and class abilities." In OSR, you have people planning how they'll use physical objects to achieve that plan. In 5E, you switch the focus from objects to the magic at hand. For example, you can use a spell like "Grasping Vine" and set up a climbing challenge where the cliff is breaking apart. Grasping Vine (and other spells) allow the players to save each other or mitigate failures. Or someone can cast entangle at the top of the cliff, preventing the biggest rocks from falling or slowing the crumbling of the cliff.

If a player busts out something that ends the encounter, then you have two options: 1.) let it ride, which I do maybe 1-3/4 times ; 2.) up the challenge so the spell doesn't work. So casting spiderclimb while climbing a cliff may seem like to ends the encounter, but a cliff that's falling apart and oozing some supernatural fluid requires more thinking.
Yeah, clocks and skill challenges are great. And that certainly adds something like action-adventure to the mix and is great fun. I'm not sure that's really quite the kind of OSR I'm talking about though.
I think some OSR GMs get really in their head that people pay a lot of attention to the character sheet. But there isn't much difference between looking at a list of spells and a list of random dungeon knick-knacks you've picked up along the way.
I think I can see what you're saying here, but there's a distinction that makes a difference between limited-use found items and permanent magical kit the PCs always have access to. Sure, they're both "looking at the character sheet" but that's not typically what that phrase implies. It's mostly about thinking beyond the rules of the game. Your PC is a person in this situation with the ability to try anything reasonable, i.e. tactical infinity and all that. It's not a video game with a limited number of possible actions.
Once the players have realized their tools have use outside of combat due to permissive-but-fair GMing, it frees up the DM to create more non-combat encounters that FEEL satisfying. These encounters then force the player to have to think more about resource management, and that makes combats more tense and has promoted more non-combative methods for overcoming monsters. For example, you have a bunch of level 3 players hunting a pack of werewolves. Let's say 10 -- too many for level three characters to overcome. So they think, how do we kill them anyhow? They lure them to a closed in area, say a barn, filled with alchemist fire vials in the rafters. Then, when the wolves charge in, cast shatter on the vials and douse them all in flames, and then cast something like Arcane Lock on the barn doors, killing, crippling, or weakening the werewolves.

Lastly, one thing the OSR does a lot of is it will drop 20-100 potentially hostile enemies, like an orc warband, on the party immediately. I do the same thing in 5E. Players are often unaware of their own power, and don't think they can supernaturally push through these problems through raw force. Thus, they are encouraged to think of new strategies -- sabotage, finding allies, territorial advantages, etc -- to overcome it.
I've done things like that in 5E. The response has been...not great. It's mostly players mad at me for putting an unwinnable fight in front of them. Because they've defaulted to everything is not only a combat but a combat they can easily win. But that's related to this bit...
Always remember that humans are pattern-seeking, problem-solving animals, and we have solved some very hard problems when the chips were down. I mimic that idea in my games. Give the player's an interesting problem, encourage use of their tools, see the sparks.
Exactly. But that cuts both ways. The broader culture around 5E is not OSR-style play. The vast majority of players have found the pattern of 5E. No matter what your character is safe, so the solution to every problem is charge. It's a serious hurdle to overcome that mentality.
 
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A very common house rule for many OSR games and old-school TSR-era D&D. I'd argue it's the most common house rule.
I guess I'm an outlier then when it comes to TSR-era. We never allowed max hp to start with, or average instead of rolling. The rule was you rolled, so you rolled. Period. I never met anyone who did anything except rolling until 2E came out in the 90s... I think that was the first time I ever heard of anything like this.

When I first picked up 5E and saw the max at 1st level and round-up average thereafter, I was a bit stunned. Like, ok, sure, let's just make things that much easier. 5E default rule is round down, but HP? Nah, we'll round them up... :rolleyes:

Now, players (and DMs) have features and features and feature of "stuff to do" in 5E. Old-school play didn't offer those. You had to think outside of the box on what you want to do and how you can do it (with resolution as simple or as complex as you want to have). It was a lot of DM fiat, which a know many people seem to not like, but I don't remember it ever being a problem back then. If it was, and you had a dick or killer DM, people stopped playing with them.

It is like watching older movies. Compared to standards now, the quality was low (video and audio), the effects were sad often (laughable today), even the acting was "over the top" regularly, etc. So, you try to show a movie from the late 70s or early 80s to a young adult born after 2000 and it is a hard sell at best. Those movies were great then, and if you feel in love with them then you sill love them for what they were, but yeah getting someone who never watched Star Wars (A New Hope) to sit through it compared to Guardians of the Galaxy... good luck. If they like the new Star Wars movies, they might "appreciate" A New Hope, but few IME will love or embrace it as much as we did then.
 


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