D&D General Should the DM roll in the open?

[Thomas Shey]

Ok but… why should an DM overrule the dice after rolling if they weren’t sure before rolling? The act of rolling suddenly makes a DM sure of the outcome they don’t want?

Yup.

I’m not trying to be deliberately opaque here - I just wonder why a DM wouldn’t think about possible outcomes first then decide if a roll is appropriate. After a few seconds of consideration, if failure is not an option, just give the PCs the auto-success and move on.

Because the people that do that have ideas of what they want to happen and just aren't wedded to the dice deciding them. They dither, roll the dice to decide, then decide they reacted negatively to the result. Its not my style, but I get it.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

Okay, a goblin sees the heroes and then sneaks away to summon reinforcements. As soon as you roll to see how stealthy the goblin is, you're more or less telling the PCs that there's something there that concerns them. They know there's something to find, so they might as well find something. What's the point in telling PCs that there's something to find (by rolling behind the screen) if you're not going to let them find it? Why should a stealth check do the opposite of what it's supposed to do - let the PCs know that something is amiss?

A good check on the part of the goblin might be a rustling that PCs heard as it was leaving. A poor check could be failing to use enough concealment and being spotted by a PC. If the goblin can leave without a trace, no roll is necessary, and should not be made.

Sounds like a good situation for an opposed check with limited success on a failure. On a failure by the players, the PCs hear something shuffling off in the woods but can’t tell what/how many/size/distance/etc. Now there’s a new decision point: do they investigate further or do something else? No need to hide or obfuscate anything on the DM’s part, IMO.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Stealth v Perception checks are an issue. I have rolled in secret for this kind of stuff before, although I don't like it.

One way round it is what I call the deferred conflict. There's a magical silent alarm at the doorway to the temple, which if triggered means a guardian spirit is now waiting for them in the main hall. Did the players trigger it or not? Well, if it's a silent alarm, and so they wouldn't know they triggered it, you can make the Stealth check after the fact, when they enter the main hall. 'Guys, there was a magical silent alarm back there, make a Stealth check'.

I do that one when possible, too. It bothers some people on chronology issues, but I don't see that as really mattering.

 

[soviet]

Sorry, but damned if I'm going to kill off someone's PC because I screwed up. Not doing that sort of thing is one of the obligations that go with the job as far as I'm concerned.

Well, death isn't necessarily permanent. Also, I think you are assuming here an expectation that fights are going to be fair. In some editions/games they are not, and players should recognise when they're in a bad spot and get the hell out of Dodge. This is also where healing potions and one-use offensive items can be a helpful safety valve, so players can expend emergency resources to overcome fights that prove to be too difficult.

I GMed a campaign of MERP (about 10 sessions I think) with no fudging and entirely open rolls, speaking game stats out loud. I gave every PC one Fate Point, which is one use only, which they could spend to ignore a hit (or other luck point style shenanigans, if they wished). I remember one fight was four level 3 PCs against 3 Trolls. No deaths, although one player did spend his Fate Point against the Trolls and so the remaining attacks against him were very tense.

 

[Shadowdweller00]

How we handle it:

Only roll the opposed Dex(Stealth) vs PC Wis(Perception) when there is a possibility of the enemies engaging - either in combat or in eavesdropping at close range. Otherwise, no point in rolling as there is no consequence for failure.

I always roll enemy stealth vs PC's passive perception; unless they are actively looking for something. I roll behind a screen or some books where it could be one of any number of things going on.

Once combat starts, all rolls are in the open.

 

[Dr_Sly]

I like games where all the rolls are performed by the players. I think Numenera works like that.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

I always roll enemy stealth vs PC's passive perception; unless they are actively looking for something. I roll behind a screen or some books where it could be one of any number of things going on.

Once combat starts, all rolls are in the open.

We don’t roll behind the screen. In the case of enemy stealth vs PC passive perception, the consequences are immediate. If the enemy succeeds, they surprise any PC who failed the passive check (if prior to combat beginning) or gain advantage on an attack vs a PC who failed the passive check (if during combat).

 

[Shadowdweller00]

Okay, a goblin sees the heroes and then sneaks away to summon reinforcements. As soon as you roll to see how stealthy the goblin is, you're more or less telling the PCs that there's something there that concerns them. They know there's something to find, so they might as well find something. What's the point in telling PCs that there's something to find (by rolling behind the screen) if you're not going to let them find it? Why should a stealth check do the opposite of what it's supposed to do - let the PCs know that something is amiss?

Once again, because I may roll dice for any number of reasons. Or just because I feel like it. An unexplained roll doesn't actually mean danger that much of the time. Not all encounters are even combat encounters, presuming that the players even notice that I'm rolling behind the screen at all. I keep the party's passive perception scores written in my notes.

A good check on the part of the goblin might be a rustling that PCs heard as it was leaving. A poor check could be failing to use enough concealment and being spotted by a PC. If the goblin can leave without a trace, no roll is necessary, and should not be made.

The way I usually run stealth is that there is no indication if the stealth check succeeds. If the check fails by a small amount, there is a rustle or twig snapping or shadow or some other unexplained indication. Failure by a large amount results in fully being seen. This is all partly dependent on circumstance and location. Failing a stealth check outside campfire light radius at night will give less information than something failing a check in a brightly lit room without good cover.

 

[Alzrius]

My group has had the GM rolling in the open for about a decade now, give or take a few years, and I have a hard time envisioning us going back to secret rolls (though space being at a premium, and so making a GM screen unwieldy, also plays a large part).

 

[Thomas Shey]

Well, death isn't necessarily permanent.

I realize this thread is in the D&D section, but there's versions and levels of D&D where it might as well be because of the costs and potential difficulties of finding someone to fix it. Its not always a revolving door (and in other games, even less so).

Also, I think you are assuming here an expectation that fights are going to be fair. In some editions/games they are not, and players should recognise when they're in a bad spot and get the hell out of Dodge. This is also where healing potions and one-use offensive items can be a helpful safety valve, so players can expend emergency resources to overcome fights that prove to be too difficult.

I'm not going to go into my thing about how hard retreating is in many games, but I'm not sure "You guys have to flee because I screwed up my design" (and as such likely didn't telegraph how hard it'd be early) is a vast improvement. It still puts fixing my mistake at the foot of the players, and I don't find that a virtue.

I GMed a campaign of MERP (about 10 sessions I think) with no fudging and entirely open rolls, speaking game stats out loud. I gave every PC one Fate Point, which is one use only, which they could spend to ignore a hit (or other luck point style shenanigans, if they wished). I remember one fight was four level 3 PCs against 3 Trolls. No deaths, although one player did spend his Fate Point against the Trolls and so the remaining attacks against him were very tense.

The fact it isn't always going to go awry isn't a good reason to be blase about it as far as I'm concerned.