Darkvision Ruins Dungeon-Crawling

[Maxperson]

Secret passages are something for which modern combatants need to search. A loose board or an underground tunnel could lead to a weapons cache (which could be viewed as treasure).

Mines, anti-personel IEDs, fu-gas rigged to a kitchen timer, and other such things would be traps.

If it is possible to see those things without using light, that is an advantage.

In 5e it isn't really. With darkvision disadvantage you are going to be missing most or all of the traps and secret doors if you don't use light.

 

[Maxperson]

Well, we're at least referencing D&D and other games that have an ability similar to darkvision. Which is a lot, I think. I think @Argyle King noted correctly that darkvision is an asset. The king didn't note what darkvision can remove from the play experience. So:

What is lost by a party entirely made up of characters with darkvision?

The ability to find traps and secret doors. The ability to not have to make dex checks if you walk in an area with some rocks on the ground. The ability to not fall into a small chasm that you didn't see. You lose a lot if you rely on just darkvision in 5e.

Once I trot out the consequences of having to see things in dim light where you can barely see, folks have always brought out light sources. That disadvantage is a literal killer.

 

[Maxperson]

When I was a kid we played 3.5 and basically everyone had a character with darkvision so I remember we essentially hand-waved over the issue of light-sources - we had a good time regardless so I wouldn't go so far as to say it ruined the experience.

When I began running games again without darkvision, it was noticeable how it introduced at a lot of fiddly 'wait, who's holding the torch' and 'no, wait, you can't see over there' moments that at times felt more like a trivial bit of upkeep, or me coming off as a pedantic DM, and less like a generator of interesting scenarios. That might be because most of my players were total newbies to TTRPG's so they don't know the standard dungeon-crawling procedures, and cause I'm still a pretty green DM, but I think we will iron it out eventually. I'd say darkvision isn't a thing that's makes the game immediately better as soon as you remove it, it takes a bit of experience to make it work without it.

3e was a very different beast. You didn't suffer perception penalties when you used it. The lack of color came up in some corner cases, but the vast majority of the time it was superior to light. 5e is not that.

 

[Maxperson]

I think the second one is way more important the first.

People shrug off encumbrance even when playing on VTTs that automate the bookkeeping, and don't mind tracking HP and spellslots and superiority dice and blood points and willpower and whatever when playing without any tools.

Generally, I think encumbrance is one of those cases where the mechanic is there only as a lip service, because without it people will complain that it's unrealistic to carry five swords, and with it being impactful people will complain that they can't carry five swords.

It's not the weight of 5 swords that is the problem. It's the awkwardness. You can't wear 5 swords balanced on your hip and back. They don't fit in a backpack. That means that they are going to be sticking out, unbalancing you, bumping into stuff, and getting in the way of your ability to fight.

 

[Maxperson]

In each of these cases, we're only talking about one single difference between torchlight and darkvision-- distance.

With darkvision (or whatever ability in other non-D&D games have that allow characters to "see in the dark")... you mention noticing doors, monsters that are out of range, and the mechanics of traps that you can't see. Darkvision allows you to "see further" underground than torchlight does.

So darkvision allows you to not see the trap earlier than the torch would. At least the torch allows you to potentially see it once you get into the bright light disatance.

Which yes, I would agree with you-- like if we are talking specifically D&D 5E darkvision, that goes out to 60 feet for most of the species that have it (giving us 60' of "dim light" conditions), whereas torches give us a radius of 20 feet in "bright light" and 20-40 feet in "dim light". So darkvision gives characters an extra 20 further feet for noticing things.

Not really. You're not getting a roll to notice the trap every 10 or 20 feet. You get one roll when you get a chance to notice it unless the circumstances change. So the darkvision person is going to fail at 60 feet, and the torch person is going to fail at 20-60 feet, which means that they both failed essentially the same roll to notice the trap. However, the torch user then gets another chance at 20 feet without disadvantage once in bright light range, since it's much, MUCH easier to see things like traps.

 

[Maxperson]

I intentionally skipped over reading the rest of the thread so as to illustrate the importance of being able to see what others cannot.

In a limited visibility environment (such as in a dungeon,) being able to see without light sources is even more of an advantage. Ambush, stealth, and surprise can heavily tilt combat in one side's favor.

Not really. If there's no light, then that means that the denizens can also see in the dark. If there is light, then you are more easily seen once you get into it . The monsters are rarely going to be standing out in the open at a distance of 60 feet away so that you can see them with dark vision and plan an ambush.

The disadvantage to perception is far worse than the off chance that you will see a monster from 60 feet away and get an ambush in.

 

[loverdrive]

Encumbrance is about choices. If employed correctly, players have to weigh options of things that might be useful or even life saving, versus being able to move faster or more quietly, as well as how much treasure they can make it out with. In the context of the classic dungeon crawl, encumbrance is just as important as light.

You don't need to teach grandma how to suck EGGS. I know! I am the first proponent of suffocating players and making them choose which absolutely necessary thing they'll have to abandon!

My point is, unless inventory management isn't a big part of the pitch, the devs are stuck between a rock and a hard place: people expect there to be some kind of inventory management and will complain if there is none, while (sure, maybe different) people will also complain if they will ever actually have to choose between carrying a big-ass sword and wearing armor. The natural end result is a lip service of a mechanic that ultimately doesn't matter.

Mod Edited

 

[Micah Sweet]

You don't need to teach grandma how to suck EGGS. I know! I am the first proponent of suffocating players and making them choose which absolutely necessary thing they'll have to abandon!

My point is, unless inventory management isn't a big part of the pitch, the devs are stuck between a rock and a hard place: people expect there to be some kind of inventory management and will complain if there is none, while (sure, maybe different) people will also complain if they will ever actually have to choose between carrying a big-ass sword and wearing armor. The natural end result is a lip service of a mechanic that ultimately doesn't matter.

If people care about it (and that includes the DM), then it matters.

 

[Argyle King]

In 5e it isn't really. With darkvision disadvantage you are going to be missing most or all of the traps and secret doors if you don't use light.

Help action to help the lead person do all of that.
Advantage and disadvantage cancels out

 

[James Gasik]

Help action to help the lead person do all of that.
Advantage and disadvantage cancels out

In theory, yes. In practice, it's been my experience that most GM's in 5e don't allow you to unilaterally use the Help Action without some provisions.

Like say, you can't help someone open a lock unless you also have Thieves' Tools proficiency, or you have to explain how you are helping. One example I ran into was "I want to help another player keep watch".

The DM felt that you couldn't Help against an unknown (something you couldn't perceive yourself), so all that happened was that both characters were keeping watch with their own passive Perception ratings instead of boosting one character's passive by 5. I know this is getting into the weeds of what the rules say vs. how the game is played, but I encountered the mindset enough that I scrapped the idea of playing a Mastermind Rogue.