D&D (2024) Check Out The New Monster Manual’s Ancient Gold Dragon

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

 

[Paul Farquhar]

....the concern is that its something the players don't see

The dragon builds it's lair, and knows it's own abilities. It's likely to include a prison, for enemies that are just annoying, and something more lethal to defend itself. Now just how lethal the deathtrap is to high level characters is going to be limited by what the dragon can actually come up with. I would expect most to be able to survive being dropped into lava for example.

Out of its lair, dropping from a height is likely it's only option, and unlikely to seriously inconvenience high level enemies.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I meant either/or my mistake.



...the best tactic.

But less than reliable. The fighter has legendary resistances of their own.

If they have mage slayer, one extra get out of jail.

And maybe they have other save bonus so they can actually make the save. Bless, bardic inspiration, Paladin aura, non dumped charisma. In that case being a gnome can help.

True but its -5 damage per hit from the Rogue versus a potential 28 damage against the Rogue.



Honestly I don't see a big point to it in most fights.

Maybe if a bunch of damage dealers group up (but even then most have their best save against it) or if you are foregoing the Banish to take on a martial character 1 vs. 1.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

The dragon builds it's lair, and knows it's own abilities. It's likely to include a prison, for enemies that are just annoying, and something more lethal to defend itself.

A reasonable limit would be returning to a place the dragn can see. But here again, at that level teleport is available for players too. And a cleric could just wish the character back. And so on. We are speaking about level 20 characters.

Now just how lethal the deathtrap is to high level characters is going to be limited by what the dragon can actually come up with. I would expect most to be able to survive being dropped into lava for example.

Yes. Against a gold dragon, fire is to be expected. Actually a reason why the breath could do double as much damage.

Out of its lair, dropping from a height is likely it's only option, and unlikely to seriously inconvenience high level enemies.

Yeah. Why would anyone try to fight a dragon at level 20 without access to flight...

 

[Stalker0]

A reasonable limit would be returning to a place the dragn can see. But here again, at that level teleport is available for players too. And a cleric could just wish the character back. And so on. We are speaking about level 20 characters.

Yes. Against a gold dragon, fire is to be expected. Actually a reason why the breath could do double as much damage.

Yeah. Why would anyone try to fight a dragon at level 20 without access to flight...

So one thing we do have to keep in mind is, there is a difference between a party having access to something, and ALL party members having access to that thing.

Would I expect a 20th level party to have some access to let a party member fly? 150% yes. But would every single member of the party be able to fly? That's trickier....I mean sure you have potions of fly, but we do have to assume some limitations in magic items (again 5e does assume they are rare), and so maybe you have a couple of those but probably not for the entire group (I could completely understand if a DM of such a high level group would let them just acquire a number of very rare such potions on their adventurers or be spending their wealth....but I wouldn't assume it for a white room discussion).

And if the wizard casts fly....thats there very very precious concentration slot taken up. Feather fall I would expect, but that is the wizard's reaction (another very precious resource in such a battle).

9th level wise, I could see a wish to make the party either immune to the banish (if they know about it) or maybe immune to the breath weapon....but otherwise I would likely prefer foresight or invulnerability for such a fight. Maze is a decent spell if you need a few rounds for the party to catch their breath...LR doesn't help against maze.

Cleric wise, regenerate would actually be a decent idea in this fight to use on one maybe even two party members, helps keep players going even after getting hit with some alpha strikes. That is one area though where the dragon having 3 attacks is quite useful, its a lot easier to take down a PC for good with 3 attacks than 2.

Holy Aura another decent cleric spell to aid the party in this fight, is it worth the concentration slot...perhaps. And definitely a death ward for every PC. Aid is also a good spell at high levels, doing a 5th level version of it to give 3 PCs +20 extra hp with no concentration is never a bad idea.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I do agree there is a level here. Dropping someone in the air or even into lava I think is fair game at those levels. But dropping them completely away from the fight trapped in a death box is one step too far for many games. Not all of them mind you, there are games that are absolutely up for that level...and the players will build their characters to bring just as much crazy. But I think that is likely a tier above what people would consider fair play.

Agreed, and that was my point.

I mean all defenses only delay death. the key is to delay death long enough to kill the dragon....same as every fight a party ever engages in.

fights are only 3ish rounds most of the time, if my character gets to stay in another round because of a death evading effect, well thats a big win.

Right, but I was still referring to the death box here. I agree that the dragon clawing you, but you clinging on for one more round to strike them down is great. Being in a box with a sphere of annihilation and living an extra six seconds.... doesn't really make the death box with the sphere any better.

And Raise Dead would bring the character back into the fight (divine intervention makes it work in a single action), now the character would certainly not be at 100% but its one way to go about getting them into the game.

Yes, if they were reachable. Again, still was referring to the death box being hundred or so feet beneath the floor or something equally excessive. Can't raise dead if you can't get to the body

 

[Chaosmancer]

So one thing we do have to keep in mind is, there is a difference between a party having access to something, and ALL party members having access to that thing.

Would I expect a 20th level party to have some access to let a party member fly?

It is also important to remember, for the previous conversation, that the idea was level 17 or 18 characters. There isn't a LOT of deifference between them and level 20 characters, but there is some.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Yes. Against a gold dragon, fire is to be expected.

On the other hand, rocking an intelligence of 18, the gold dragon may prioritise a way to deal with enemies that are immune to its fiery breath. Poison gas? Something fast acting before the target can dimension door out is preferred, and a dependence on falling into the hazard cannot be relied upon.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Would I expect a 20th level party to have some access to let a party member fly?

Fly can be upcast to affect multiple targets. But you don't need it to counter the "drop from a height" tactic, just having someone with Feather Fall does the job.

But any dragon fight out in the open requires countering the dragon's flying ability, it doesn't need to be an ancient gold.

 

[Upper_Krust]

No, it really doesn't. Because if the Fighter being banished for a single turn was truly so game changing... then it isn't even an issue for the fighter to make that save once.

Its a potential perpetual Banish until the fight becomes a 1 vs 1.

Typically the best tactic will be to Banish the character with the highest HP or AC.

"This damage doesn't matter at all, we'll just use our resources to deal with it" Yes, it uses resources to counter the damage.

Yes, resources that replenish after a long rest.

If the CR 24 Ancient Dragon is not the culmination of or sum totality of the encounter then what is the DM doing for an encore...throwing the Tarrasque at them?

You are aware I have been accounting for evasion and absorb elements and even abilities you seem to have forgotten about this entire time, correct? But you keep acting like I've never thought of Evasion on a dex save even once

Again, my point isn't that I beleive that the Dragon's Breath is so deadly it will maim and kill the entire party on its own, just that it isn't so weak as to be a complete non-issue, worthy of nothing but scorn.

Yes, I know that's your point and I disagree.

If we ignore the Banish effect I don't believe its anything an Epic Tier party will get worried about.

XP rewards have never changed based on how many fights you had before. So I have no idea what point you think you are making.

You made the point the Party may have already used some of their best spells/resources BEFORE they fight the dragon.

I made the point the Dragon is built as a Highly Difficult threat on its own WITHOUT previous encounters.

It can only banish once. Using other legendary actions twice and banishing is still possible. And, again, no Banish is not the only factor in this fight that has any potential of causing issues for the PCs.

It auto-removes 1 PC from the fight and potentially locks them out of the fight while other characters remain.

My issue with it is primarily that the High DC to Low Save ratio is completely broken at Epic Tier D&D. Fix that and I don't think its unfair, but as we know Core 2024 D&D does NOT fix it.

You're entire issue seemed to be that the dragon had no chance of even singing the party's coattails, unless it could drop 1 PC per round, because it would die so fast to the PCs that it could never do anything effective to them. If that is true, it dying slower would fix that issue.

We want a 3-4 round combat not a 10 round combat. Long slogs are never fun, which is why I am suggesting upping the damage "slightly" is a better solution to increasing hit points.

As far as I can tell the hit points are fine. If we assume approx. 2/3rds of attacks hit and the typical epic character deals 60-75 damage per round (if everything hits), then that's around 45 damage (on average) per character per turn, 180 per round for 4 characters, 540 for 3 rounds, given the Dragon will beat most in Initiative we likely get to see the dragon deal at least 3 full rounds of attacks, maybe 4, against the four characters.

The problem, as I see it, is Banish is an auto removal of 1 character, so that means we recalculate to 135 per turn (3 characters) for the heroes. Meaning the Dragon now gets (on average) 4-5 rounds against three characters...compounded by the fact the dragon gets to pick the three weakest (in terms of hit points) characters to attack.

The collective HP of the PCs is around 600 (for a standard group). But remove the Fighter and you remove at least 1/3rd of the party's HP (and likely the character built to Tank with the highest AC).

So without Banish the Dragon gets 3-4 turns to defeat 600 HP, with Banish the dragon gets 4-5 turns (at least) to defeat 400 HP against targets with lower AC.

Flat out false. It can banish one person per turn. That means three characters can still do things to it. So, unless you only have one character capable of dealing damage at level 17, Banish does not make the fight impossible to win.

While not impossible, without Prep its improbable the Party can win. Which means its a TPK due to the design.

Why not? Seriously, how is losing 20% of your health in a single attack not worrying for a martial character? Do they only lose hp if it is 50% of their total or more? You just keep asserting that it isn't an issue, but you refuse to elaborate beyond that.

Its not an issue because you have 80% more...

• [after slicing one of the Black Knight's arms off]
• King Arthur: Now stand aside, worthy adversary!
• Black Knight: 'Tis but a scratch!
• King Arthur: A scratch? Your arm's off!
• Black Knight: No, it isn't.
• King Arthur: What's that, then?
• Black Knight: [after a pause] I've had worse.
• King Arthur: You liar!
• Black Knight: Come on, you pansy!

No, it is more than 1.5 rounds of actions. It is approximately 2 to 2.5 rounds. And the Fighter's AC might not matter, the dragon is hitting at a +17. That hits an AC of 25 on a roll of 8 or better. So, the dragon isn't realistically going to struggle against the Fighter's AC.

An AC of 25 means the Dragon hits 65% of the time....35% chance of missing. Likely the Fighter has a better AC than the Wizards, which is why removing the Fighter (or Barbarian) with Banish is the optimum tactic.

The Epic Fighter might have an AC of 26, 27, 28, 29, 30.

Even assuming the Fighter has AC 25 the dragon misses one third of the time against it, but likely has an easier time hitting the other characters (maybe not the Rogue arguably I suppose), who also have less HP. Its like a win-win-win for the dragon. Party DPR is down*, party HP is massively down, party vulnerability is almost certainly down with lower AC's to hit.

*Massively so in the case of a Fighter or Barbarian.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Typically the best tactic will be to Banish the character with the highest HP or AC.

Typically this character is also the least threat, so no.

Anyway, I do not allow monsters to know how many hp or AC player characters have, and more than the player characters are allowed to know the monster's stats.

Rip the wizard apart with physical damage, send the cleric to the oubliette, stay out of reach of the fighters and barbarians.