D&D (2024) DMG 2024: Is The Sandbox Campaign Dead?

DMing according to me (so it must be right):
Step 1: Present scenario.
Step 2: Hope the players care.
Step 3: Adapt to what the players think is going on.
Step 4: Resolve scenario based on all of the fiddley bits on the character sheets as well as
the players input.
Rinse and repeat.

Is there a term for this type of play?
 

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DMing according to me (so it must be right):
Step 1: Present scenario.
Step 2: Hope the players care.
Step 3: Adapt to what the players think is going on.
Step 4: Resolve scenario based on all of the fiddley bits on the character sheets as well as
the players input.
Rinse and repeat.

Is there a term for this type of play?
I think it is called "roleplaying."
 

If they like the path they're on, I'd argue there's no reason for them to quit.

Not what I would do, but I can see it.
If they would like that path, then the DM shouldn't be lying them and just be upfront about the nature of the game. If I found out the DM was lying to me like that, it wouldn't matter how much fun the lie had been up to that point, the deception would retroactively ruin that fun AND cost me trust in the DM. If you can't trust your DM, you really shouldn't be playing in that game.

One of my players when he DM'd for the first time said, "Hey guys. I'm new at this so I'd appreciate it if you didn't deviate from the adventure I'm running. There's a lot for me to concentrate on and I don't think I'd do well if you guys left the adventure to do other stuff." We agreed to stay within the bounds of that adventure, so instead of it being a railroad, it preserved our choice.
 

I think player agency is the most important aspect of RPGs, so I agree with you on illusionism. But one aspect of player agency is choosing to get on the train.
See my above post. If we are agreeing, then it isn't a train because player choice is preserved. Railroads are universally bad, because they rob player choice by forcing the players on a specific route. No rob/force, no railroad. :)
 

DMing according to me (so it must be right):
Step 1: Present scenario.
Step 2: Hope the players care.
Step 3: Adapt to what the players think is going on.
Step 4: Resolve scenario based on all of the fiddley bits on the character sheets as well as
the players input.
Rinse and repeat.

Is there a term for this type of play?

People have been trying to bring order to the world by creating categories and labels and then using those to define things since the dawn of time. Sometimes it's useful but when it comes to style of play? I think there's just too many gray areas outside of the extremes. Is a sandbox about the players being 100% responsible for what goes on and the GM just responds to it or is it a sandbox because player choices and desires matter?

In any case, I don't think categories really matter all that much. The only important thing is that player decisions, the words and deeds of their characters should make a difference in the campaign. To me it would be a scale from sandbox/completely player directed to linear* with most campaigns falling somewhere in the broad middle with some sessions leaning towards one end of the spectrum or the other.

*Railroad is an anti-pattern and something that should never be used.
 


DMing according to me (so it must be right):
Step 1: Present scenario.
Step 2: Hope the players care.
Step 3: Adapt to what the players think is going on.
Step 4: Resolve scenario based on all of the fiddley bits on the character sheets as well as
the players input.
Rinse and repeat.

Is there a term for this type of play?

DM: (lays out adventure idea they've been working on all week) "The town asks for your help against the stone giants."
Player: "My character isn't interested in doing that."
DM: "Make one that is."
 

If they would like that path, then the DM shouldn't be lying them and just be upfront about the nature of the game. If I found out the DM was lying to me like that, it wouldn't matter how much fun the lie had been up to that point, the deception would retroactively ruin that fun AND cost me trust in the DM. If you can't trust your DM, you really shouldn't be playing in that game.

One of my players when he DM'd for the first time said, "Hey guys. I'm new at this so I'd appreciate it if you didn't deviate from the adventure I'm running. There's a lot for me to concentrate on and I don't think I'd do well if you guys left the adventure to do other stuff." We agreed to stay within the bounds of that adventure, so instead of it being a railroad, it preserved our choice.
Exactly how honest does a DM have to be about the game they're running vis a vis this issue for you to not consider them liars? Is, "We're running Hoard of the Dragon Queen" good enough?
 

Exactly how honest does a DM have to be about the game they're running vis a vis this issue for you to not consider them liars? Is, "We're running Hoard of the Dragon Queen" good enough?
I'd want a hair more if he plans on making the group finish it before going on to something else. If he's not going to allow the group out of that adventure, then he needs to like my friend did and ask us not to deviate. Otherwise, I'm going to assume that it's something that can be departed from at some point if the group deems it so.
 

Railroad is an anti-pattern and something that should never be used.

I think speaking in absolutes, especially in a subjective arena like TTRPGs, is always a mistake. Railroading in D&D, and any other system, is an odd topic. It's unclear how you actually decide what is and isn't a railroad without mind-reading. The definition I see floated a lot is that railroading is any decisions by a DM that "ignore player choice." This leads to some very interesting situations when judging what is and isn't a railroad.

We can look at a series of decisions made by a DM during a fork in the road. One side of the decision is prepped, because the DM is certain, in their mind, of the players' choice. The players than surprise that DM and go the other route. Let's look at these and see if we can spot the problem;

First one. The DM planned for nothing to happen on the expected side of the fork. When the other side is chosen, the DM decides to use that same outcome.

Second one. The prep is an Ogre encounter on the expected side of the fork. The players decide to go the other route because the trees are prettier on that side, and the DM decides that the Ogre encounter happens there as well.

Lastly, the DM has a table of random encounters they planned on using for the expected path. When the players chose the unexpected path, the DM decides to use the random table as well.

Here the issue becomes obvious. You can't decipher a railroad on the information provided. Because you don't know if the DM considered the player choice or not. If the DM considered the choice and came to the decision based on that choice, does it matter that the decision is mirrored for both sides of the fork? If the DM doesn't consider the choice in the decision, it is a railroad regardless of the mirrored outcome. The dice in the third example don't change anything, choosing to roll the dice in spite of player choice is the same as any other decision made in spite of player choice.

This becomes more and more clear the more absurd the hypothetical. Let's say the DM prepped to have nothing happen on either side of the fork. But they see the folly in their ways, and at the table, they decide to have an encounter on the side the players choose to avoid looking like it was "an illusion of choice." They changed their mind not becuase of player choice, but because of fear of being called "bad" for railroading. This attempt to avoid the appearance of railroading is railroading.

We see here that to accurately discern a railroad, we need to know DM intent. Since no one, as far as I know, can read minds, I don't know that we can accurately discern a railroad.

So I wonder, does the demonization of the behavior lead to DM's being put in a catch 22. Where they have to start making ever more arbitrary choices to avoid the appearance of railroading. Not because they are railroading, but because on the surface it looks like they might be. Or will ever hostile and more skeptical players demand to look at the DM notes to "verify" they werent railroading?

I'm glad I trust my DM. Not doing so seems like a massive headache.
 

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