D&D 5E 4E Cosmology

[EzekielRaiden]

Maybe a dumb question, but why does the cosmology matter? How does it impact your game at the table, at least at the beginning - and even later? As noted in the quote from the DMG24 above, the way to get to various planes is through gates or floating on the Astral Sea. The "spatial" relationship on a 2D map is just for human comprehension.

For my part, yes, it does matter, but that's in part because I am drawn to two main things: Sorcerer-like arcane power "in the blood", and Paladins. The former means I care rather a lot about what sources these powers can come from, and how these powers interact with the world, and thus world-building matters a lot; the latter means I care about the reasons for beliefs (I've never been a fan of the "paladunce", I favor higher Int and lower Dex) and whether life...and the afterlife...really are as advertised.

I do agree and like the idea though of Chaos trying to break down Order; but then again, I always was a fan of the 2nd law of thermodynamics. (Irony alert! It's the 2nd LAW, the LAW OF ENTROPY . It's got all the Chaos folx really pissed off tbh)

Sure, but Chaos got its revenge in the quantum world.

 

[dave2008]

That's just as verifiable as heaven and hell in Christianity, i.e. not.

No, I am not talking about RL. I am talking about mythology and a game.

 

[Staffan]

No, I am not talking about RL. I am talking about mythology and a game.

Right. The Norse (or at least the common conception of them) had myths about the afterlife, where those who died in battle were taken by valkyries to Valhalla and the rest went to Hel and Niffleheim. But no-one had actually been to Valhalla and returned. They have the same level of empirical proof that Dante's Divine Comedy does – none. But in D&D, you can go to Ysgard using powerful magic or portals. Or to Mount Celestia, or the Nine Hells, and so on.

 

[dave2008]

...because in the actual world of D&D it is verifable. In the actual world where Norse and Greek etc. mythologies existed, meaning our world, it is not verifiable. You're comparing apples to oranges. On the one hand, for a character inside the world of D&D, it is in fact a physically verifiable place, not merely a story people tell one another which may or may not correspond to reality and which none of them have any evidence about besides those stories. On the other, for a human inside the world of Earth, these things are not physically verifiable places, and are merely stories people tell one another which may or may not correspond to reality and which no IRL human has any evidence about besides those stories.

To a character actually IN the cosmology, this is a verifiable, empirical fact; there is no need to take them on faith. To a human actually IN the cosmology of Earth, these things are not verifiable, empirical facts; they must be taken on faith.

Nothing like what an IRL human on IRL Earth experiences occurs in the cosmology of D&D editions. Nothing like what a character in the cosmology of a D&D edition experiences occurs--in any testable fashion--on IRL Earth. That is precisely what makes the comparison inapt.

I am not talking about RL. I made that verify clear. RL doesn't have any bearing on a fantasy mythology. So I am not sure why you keep bringing it up.

When I say it is a verifiable fact that gods existed in Greek mythology, I am talking about what happens in that mythological space. The peoples and heroes of Greek Mythology could verify the existence of Athena and Ares. That is a core aspect of Greek mythology. I assume you are not arguing otherwise, but I am not sure because you continue to talk about RL peoples and that is not what this is about!

 

[dave2008]

Right. The Norse (or at least the common conception of them) had myths about the afterlife, where those who died in battle were taken by valkyries to Valhalla and the rest went to Hel and Niffleheim. But no-one had actually been to Valhalla and returned. They have the same level of empirical proof that Dante's Divine Comedy does – none. But in D&D, you can go to Ysgard using powerful magic or portals. Or to Mount Celestia, or the Nine Hells, and so on.

I am not completely familiar with all of Norse mythology. However, I do know that in Norse mythology mortals interacted with the gods and could verify they were real. Again, I am talking about what goes on within the mythology, not RL. RL has nothing to do with it!

 

[Staffan]

I am not completely familiar with all of Norse mythology. However, I do know that in Norse mythology mortals interacted with the gods and could verify they were real. Again, I am talking about what goes on within the mythology, not RL. RL has nothing to do with it!

I think we're talking across one another.

I am talking about how people IRL act. IRL, we have no proof of an afterlife one way or the other. There are plenty of religions who tell us to live our lives in particular ways, with the promise of paradise or threat of torture in the next life. But there's no empirical proof of this. So you get plenty of people who break with the rules, either hoping for forgiveness, or saying "Well, it can't be that bad really", or appealing to the Greater Good, or things like that.

But in D&D, that level of ambiguity is gone. You can ask a god what interpretation of their rules is correct. You can check out what the afterlife or afterlives are like. So that removes a whole lot of tension from the world.

 

[Sorcerers Apprentice]

But in D&D, that level of ambiguity is gone. You can ask a god what interpretation of their rules is correct. You can check out what the afterlife or afterlives are like. So that removes a whole lot of tension from the world.

Most people in D&D can't do this though. A powerful spellcaster can tell you that he spoke with the gods, but you personally have no way of verifying the truth of such statements, you have to take them on faith.

 

[Chaltab]

I doubt alignment had much to do with the creation Carceri, it's always been a prison plane where the gods have put the unwanted, that's where you find the titans, for instance. Wanting to keep Tartarus for the imprisoned titans is probably why it exists since early dnd.

I mean that's fair, but as far as I know the part about Carceri constantly churning out Abominations and even the gods don't know how to turn it off is original to 4E. Moradin building an adamantine gate to keep them in is 4E. The release valve into Arvandor because Corellon and Sehanine had a moral objection to a divine gulag is 4E.

Perhaps Dave2008 is right to say this is more lore than cosmology, but since Ezekiel's initial reaction that it was impossible to merge them was for thematic reasons, I think the details that emphasize the themes are important.

 

[cbwjm]

I mean that's fair, but as far as I know the part about Carceri constantly churning out Abominations and even the gods don't know how to turn it off is original to 4E. Moradin building an adamantine gate to keep them in is 4E. The release valve into Arvandor because Corellon and Sehanine had a moral objection to a divine gulag is 4E.

Perhaps Dave2008 is right to say this is more lore than cosmology, but since Ezekiel's initial reaction that it was impossible to merge them was for thematic reasons, I think the details that emphasize the themes are important.

Yeah, I'm not saying that isn't 4e, I'm just saying that it's been a prison plane since it was made part of dnd.

 

[GusNBru]

I loved 4e's cosmology, and have always disliked the Great Wheel. I'm younger than you, so that might be part of it, but I always found the Great Wheel completely ridiculous for a world where "Chaos" is supposed to be an extremely strong, influential cosmic force.

Like...this is a universe where Chaos exists, and is trying to break everything down....and yet it plays perfectly nice with everyone else, stays in its lane, and participates exactly as it should in the pristine clockwork of the universe where there is a place for everything and everything has its place. It just...doesn't make sense, cosmologically.

The fact that the Great Wheel is also almost actively antagonistic to the concept of "playable, adventurable locations" is just as bad, of course. But the above has always bothered me so, so much.

I agree with the chaos part wholeheartedly.