D&D (2024) Check Out The New Monster Manual’s Ancient Gold Dragon

Wizards of the Coast has previewed (part of) the stat block for one of its iconic monsters on social media. Take a look!

 

[Stalker0]

The actual damage numbers for Forzaantirilys are lower than the 2024 gold dragon. However, since Forzaantirilys can ignore resistance to Fire damage, she probably has the edge.

Ancient Gold Dragon DPR: 182
Forzaantirilys DPR: 151-164 (depending on how often you want to say its bonus actions & reactions are effective)

The forz dragon also has a number of control effects as well, more than the mm gold.

Still I do like how the mm gold brings several elements to the table in a more streamlined package, it just might need more damage but the chassis looks reasonable

 

[Stalker0]

The trouble with monsters that hit like a brick outhouse is that if the party lose initiative that's one PC dead, even if they eventually win. The banish thing is intended to take a party member out without actually killing them.

The amount of damage a monster has to do to actually kill a 17th level PC outright is obscene. (And that’s before the variety of effects that can bring them from 0 to 1 hp).

Drop them to 0…sure, but actually kill is very difficult.

 

[dave2008]

The forz dragon also has a number of control effects as well, more than the mm gold.

Still I do like how the mm gold brings several elements to the table in a more streamlined package, it just might need more damage but the chassis looks reasonable

Yep, it could be reworked just a little I think to make it more effective, but it is a good base. However, I am not the one to do that! I have tried a couple times since the full stat block dropped and I just can't bring myself to make an ancient dragon stat block that streamlined!

 

[Quickleaf]

After reviewing several pages on DPR estimations, here is my thought:

I like that this gold dragon has Word of Recall & Zone of Truth, because when I’ve used a gold dragon it was an ally to the PCs (and its fight vs a red dragon happened “narratively” while PCs undertook their quest), so those are things it could do to directly help the PCs.

I doubt I’d use these involved stats for a gold dragon helping the PCs in combat. Too much overhead.

 

[Stalker0]

It depended entirely whether the party had single target powers or multi target powers. And in the latter case not being to use most of your powers is not a fun sort of difficult as a player.

You mean how like legendary resistance means that any spell that has a save is completely worthless

 

[dave2008]

You mean how like legendary resistance means that any spell that has a save is completely worthless

well, half damage is something!

 

[Crimson Longinus]

You mean how like legendary resistance means that any spell that has a save is completely worthless

No, not like that, as in 5e each spell is not an independent resource so you can use your spell slots for those spells which you deem usable in a given battle.

 

[Stalker0]

No, not like that, as in 5e each spell is not an independent resource so you can use your spell slots for those spells which you deem usable in a given battle.

a fair point, 5e spell slots are a lot more flexible than 4e powers.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I don't care if you have them, or you saved them for the occasion. "I needed to use an 8th level spell to keep my party from dying" =/= "That attack was utterly trivial and no threat to the party". If it was no threat, why did you need a powerful spell to counter it?

Epic Casters have at least 6 high level spells. Most combats only last 3-4 rounds. Expending a few of their powerful spells doesn't render them impotent.

No, it shouldn't. Heck, check out MonsterEnvy's test: D&D (2024) - Testing against the Gold Dragon

I am following it. The two main problems seem to be:

1. Banish is extremely annoying - as I have stated it would be.
2. The PCs (even against the odds) keep failing saves.
https://www.enworld.org/threads/testing-against-the-gold-dragon.709673/page-3

PCs aren't doing so great, and yet not a single one of them has been dropped yet.

Exactly. the Dragon is weak and the whole fight hinges on its use of Banish.

The idea that a CR 30 should almost drop 2 PCs a turn is absurd, because most tables have only 4 PCs. That means that you are saying that the Tarrasque or Titan monsters should WIN against a level 20 party in two turns. That's not fun for anyone.

1. Its the Tarrasque...supposedly the most dangerous monster in the game...you don't build it to just tickle the PC's.
2. Dropping an Epic Tier PC to 0 HP is not likely to be the end of them.
3. DPR still requires everything to hit.

Especially since you mean that they should be able to do so WHILE overcoming the counter-abilities from the party, because if the Cleric can heal the party up from that damage then it doesn't count.

Statistically most parties won't even have a Cleric, but if we are doing a Classic 4 Classes Party, then you can't complain about the Cleric doing 'Heal-y' stuff.

But the DC 24 Fire Breath isn't broken, despite having the same high DC. In fact, you believe the Fire Breath to be weak and trivial.

So it isn't the DC that is the problem...

The DC 24 Fire Breath is broken, its just luckily the damage is so low it won't be AS BIG a problem as the Banish.

... is that it? That's your entire argument for why removing one PC makes the fight a guaranteed TPK? Because tanks are meant to take hits?

Maybe I am not explaining myself properly.

Being able to auto-banish the 'Tank' DISPROPORTIONATELY undermines the Party's overall HP and its highest AC character - the one best designed to resist attacks.

They laughed because

1) Feats and Magic Items were not accounted for

That's just nonsense. They laughed at it because the high CR monsters are badly designed and incredibly weak.

2) People kept trying to have solo fights without strong lieutenants and minion.

Again irrelevant, its a Solo monster. The whole point of Legendary Resistance is so we can have Solo Monsters.

And you are missing a LOT of design if you think PCs are going to be laughing at the new monsters. These things are going to be wrecking house.

You are as delusional as WotC if you think adding 9 fire damage to a Gold Dragon's "Rends" is suddenly going to translate to it "wrecking house". The 2024 Power Creep alone probably undermines something like a flat +20% hike in monster damage.

Remove temporarily. They can remove a character from the fight TEMPORARILY.

They can remove them EACH round, before they act. Its a potentially Perpetual removal.

The fighter keeps showing back up after being banished. So you still have to defeat them. You aren't banishing them and then they are gone forever. It is a delay tactic.

You can continually Banish them each round.

 

[Upper_Krust]

You mean how like legendary resistance means that any spell that has a save is completely worthless

Which is why I suggest Legendary Resistance should require using a Reaction (or Legendary Action in this case) - then the opponent's attacks are diminished.