D&D (2024) DMG 2024: The Planes

[Reynard]

Hmm no, I don't think so to your second question.

Dungeons are usually just one of many locales as opposed to the main thing. And creating a serviceable and fun dungeon doesn't require all the "best practices" be laid out beforehand, because you're essentially just making a flavorful location. That's my greater point. That the game isn't focused on Dungeons anymore, but on Fantasy Worlds, which include Dungeons, and Dungeons themselves are really a stand-in word for "Fantasy Locations."

Honestly, there is no evidence for this view. Every D&D module uses dungeons as discrete play areas. Whatever you are advocating here is not backed up by what WotC actually publishes (which I think is safecto assume is what they think is appropriate for the game)

 

[DrJawaPhD]

So you are pro splitting things up into multiple chapters and having to page flip to get the whole story, specifically for new DMs?

Books typically are split up into multiple chapters, and this organizational structure generally works quite well, yes.

 

[Micah Sweet]

That it's not a necessary skill for most people to learn or be taught.

Sounds like a negative value judgment to me.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

At the very least, a sample map in the dungeon section explaining how to use it and stock it. You know, like is in the 2014 DMG and every DMG before it. The sample adventures are laughable in that regard: they literally tell the (assumed to be completely inexperienced) DM to modify the map to make it better fit the plot. Not show them how, not give them maps, just offhandedly say it.

I don't know why this is a controversial opinion other that people getting their backs up anytime anyone suggests WotC did not do it perfectly. The 2024 PHB and DMG both have serious organizational issues, and the DMG while doing a very good job of explaining play and the DM's job fails to explain the most basic unit of D&D adventure design: the dungeon.

It has multiple sample Dungeon Maps in the book. And the sample adventures point to those maps for use. How they tell you to alter the maps makes sense, like removing the staircase to the lower area to shrink the map.

The Creating Adventures section has info relevant to Dungeons as Dungeons are assumed to be Adventures.

 

[Micah Sweet]

The DMG did a great job with dungeons but most people don't use dungeons, so it was a waste of space for most people IMO. I never once used this rolltables, even though I do sometimes use dungeons.

Source on "most people don't use dungeons" please? Come on man, how can you possibly make that claim the way you are here, like it's definitive? It sounds like you can definitively say you don't use dungeons, but I can't see more than that.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Random tables are a good example of how not to do it. At least not if you want an ecology that makes sense.

They can work well if the tables are properly formulated for the task to which they are put to use. Just like any other tool in the books. I love a good table.

 

[Reynard]

It has multiple sample Dungeon Maps in the book. And the sample adventures point to those maps for use. How they tell you to alter the maps makes sense, like removing the staircase to the lower area to shrink the map.

To my mind, this is apologetic nonsense. If you want to teach people how to build dungeon adventures, you teach them how to draw and then stock a map.

Honestly, I think you are just forgiving WotC for half-assing it.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

To my mind, this is apologetic nonsense. If you want to teach people how to build dungeon adventures, you teach them how to draw and then stock a map.

Honestly, I think you are just forgiving WotC for half-assing it.

They make recommendations for how to draw a map, what areas and such should be in them, and say look to the samples as examples of what it can look like. I think that’s more useful than a random generator.

Looking at the 2014 version of the section a lot of the info is still there in it’s own sections. I wouldn’t mind more, but I think it gets the info across though it’s own section and the Creating Adventures Chapter.

 

[Reynard]

They make recommendations for how to draw a map, what areas and such should be in them, and say look to the samples as examples of what it can look like. I think that’s more useful than a random generator.

I agree that a random dungeon generator is of uncertain value compared to a more thoughtful approach. But the 2024 DMG given dungeons really short shrift and, more importantly, it doesn't actually use its maps in the example adventures. It asks new GMs to make map adjustments with very little guidance.

Looking at the 2014 version of the section a lot of the info is still there in it’s own sections. I wouldn’t mind more, but I think it gets the info across though it’s own section and the Creating Adventures Chapter.

I think that the 2024 DMG is primarily interested in priming new GMs to run WotC published adventures.

 

[MonsterEnvy]

I agree that a random dungeon generator is of uncertain value compared to a more thoughtful approach. But the 2024 DMG given dungeons really short shrift and, more importantly, it doesn't actually use its maps in the example adventures. It asks new GMs to make map adjustments with very little guidance.

But it literally does. The first adventure says use the Underdark Warrens Map, pretend the Secret Door, and three of the four passages off the map don’t exist. The second adventure says use the Mine Map. The third adventure says use a chunk of the Volcanic Caves while removing passages to keep it small ( which is the most open ended of them). The 4th says use the west half of the Dungeon hideout ground floor and remove the stairs. The 5th says use the manor map.