Are Orcs in the Monster Manual? No and Yes.

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The culture war surrounding orcs in Dungeons & Dragons continues with the release of the 2025 Monster Manual. Review copies of the Monster Manual are out in the wild, with many sites, EN World included, are giving their thoughts about the final core rulebook for the revised Fifth Edition ruleset. But while most commentators are discussing whether or not the monsters in the new Monster Manual hit harder than their 2014 equivalent, a growing number of commentators (mostly on Elon Musk's Twitter, but other places as well) are decrying the abolishment of orcs in the new rulebook.

Several months ago, would-be culture warriors complained about the depiction of orcs in the new Player's Handbook. Instead of depicting orcs as bloodthirsty marauders or creatures of evils, orcs (or more specifically, playable orcs) were depicted as a traveling species given endurance, determination, and the ability by their god Gruumsh to see in the darkness to help them "wander great plains, vast caverns, and churning seas." Keep in mind that one of the core facets of Dungeons & Dragons is that every game is defined by its players rather than an official canon, but some people were upset or annoyed about the shift in how a fictional species of humanoids were portrayed in two paragraphs of text and a piece of art in a 250+ page rulebook.

With the pending release of the Monster Manual, the orc is back in the spotlight once again. This time, it's because orcs no longer have statblocks in the Monster Manual. While the 2014 Monster Manual had a section detailing orc culture and three statblocks for various kinds of orcs, all specific mention of orcs have indeed been removed from the Monster Manual. The orcs are not the only creature to receive this treatment - drow are no longer in the Monster Manual, nor are duergar.

However, much of this is due to a deliberate design choice, meant not to sanitize Dungeons & Dragons from evil sentient species, but rather to add some versatility to a DM's toolbox. Orcs (and drow) are now covered under the expanded set of generic NPC statblocks in the Monster Manual. Instead of players being limited to only three Orc-specific statblocks (the Orc, the Orc War Chief and the Orc Eye of Gruumsh), DMs can use any of the 45 Humanoid statblocks in the book. Campaigns can now feature orc assassins, orc cultists, orc gladiators, or orc warriors instead of leaning on a handful of stats that lean into specific D&D lore.

Personally, I generally like that the D&D design ethos is leaning away from highly specific statblocks to more generalized ones. Why wouldn't an orc be an assassin or a pirate? Why should orcs (or any other species chosen to be adversaries in a D&D campaign) be limited to a handful of low CR statblocks? The design shift allows DMs more versatility, not less.

However, I do think that the D&D design team would do well to eventually provide some modularity to these generic statblocks, allowing DMs to "overlay" certain species-specific abilities over these NPC statblocks. Abilities like darkvision for orcs or the ability to cast darkness for drow or a fiendish rebuke for tieflings would be an easy way to separate the generic human assassin from the orc without impacting a statblock's CR.

As for the wider controversy surrounding orcs in D&D, the game and its lore is evolving over time, just as it has over the past 50 years. There's still a place for evil orcs, but they no longer need to be universally (or multiversally) evil within the context of the game. The idea that D&D's rulebooks must depict anything but the rules themselves a specific way is antithetical to the mutability of Dungeons & Dragons, which is supposed to be one of the game's biggest strengths.
 

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Christian Hoffer

Christian Hoffer


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Ok. I assumed being able to put 2 and 2 together. Also duergars are in the MM 2014. Now Duergars are straight out. No monster entry. No abilities. No guidelines at all. So duergars stopped existing in 2024 D&D. Same for deep gnomes.

I is not about those features being great. It is about those features being flavourful and setting a good example of how to flavour your monsters.

The "reskinning" of 4e without altering the stat blocks was one of my most hated features (as were monsters stats and equippment having no connection whatsoever).
This is close to that. And I hate that. Ok. Take an orc that should have superior darkvision. Make it a tough. And no, nothing to help them see in darkness. Should you rule that they can? Of course. Maybe also adding relentless endurance? Maybe a bit too much. Maybe not.
The PHB is explicit that those traits are specifically for adventurers of those species.
So what are the traits for non-adventurers?
At least darkvision for orcs and drows.
I get what you are saying and understand completely the vibe you are going for with what you are looking for. I just disagree with the level of "orcness" that comes from various (what I consider to be) minor game effects... mainly because most game effects get shared across so many different creatures and class features. So how good can they really be to get across something as important as an entire species?

Obviously I can't speak for other people... but I can get across the idea that the monster across from you is an orc even if at no point it is revealed the creature may or may not have Darkvision out to 120 feet, or that the creature can take one extra hit more than what their hit point total might suggest. Because those are just bland game effects that to me distinguish nothing and which also might never actually come up. Is a so-called "orc" still an orc if they never actually fall to 0 hit points and thus trigger their relentless endurance? Or you don't encounter them in complete darkness and thus it's never suggested whether they have darkvision at all? If you require game mechanics in a statblock to suggest a creature but you never actually use those mechanics, how important can they truly be to know what they are? Or is it perhaps more a possibility that the orc is an orc because of how the DM portrays the character as an orc?

How does the orc behave when approached by the party? How do they react to what the PCs say or do? In my opinion those ideas can be a lot more specific to individual species and creatures and go hundreds of miles further to identify them than a pair of game mechanics in telling us what this orc is and what they are about. And quite frankly I think new players are better off learning and gaining experience with that part of roleplaying than just looking at a chart for a game mechanic in one of the books to just tack onto a statblock in the belief it now turns the creature into a whole new species.

Others mileage may vary. 🤷‍♂️
 
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Please tell me hobgoblins are still horrid. Let me have it that gnolls are the CE you can 100% punch in the face and hobgoblins are the LE equivalent
We don't need to. You can just tell that to yourself. You don't need WotC or anyone to confirm for you how you wish to play gnolls and hobgoblins. Your game, your rules. Doesn't matter what the books say.
 

Mod Note:

Which minority groups identify themselves with orcs?
And
What makes that the right question?

Perhaps you- and others- missed my note to GothmogIV in this thread? You might want to recheck that particular post.

For those unwilling, a reframing: it is not that minorities identify with orcs (etc.), it is that orcs (and other species) have been described by real world bigoted stereotypes directed at minorities in certain RPG products, albeit without using the most obvious slurs. IOW, certain writers have described orcs (etc.) using racist dog whistles.

That’s not OK.

Is this clear enough?
 

Mod Note:


And


Perhaps you- and others- missed my note to GothmogIV in this thread? You might want to recheck that particular post.

For those unwilling, a reframing: it is not that minorities identify with orcs (etc.), it is that orcs (and other species) have been described by real world bigoted stereotypes directed at minorities in certain RPG products, albeit without using the most obvious slurs. IOW, certain writers have described orcs (etc.) using racist dog whistles.

That’s not OK.

Is this clear enough?
 
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For people who like the old Orcs,the 2014 MM is still there and is still compatible with the new ruleset. So is MOM and Volo's if you bought it before it was retired. This means there are plenty of Orc and other species stat blocks out there, all compatible with the 2024 rules.
 


Goblins and Hobgoblins as Fey means Hold Person, Charm Person, Crown of Madness, Dominate Person etc will no longer work on them. This is quite a change.
 

I get what you are saying and understand completely the vibe you are going for with what you are looking for. I just disagree with the level of "orcness" that comes from various (what I consider to be) minor game effects... mainly because most game effects get shared across so many different creatures and class features. So how good can they really be to get across something as important as an entire species?

Obviously I can't speak for other people... but I can get across the idea that the monster across from you is an orc even if at no point it is revealed the creature may or may not have Darkvision out to 120 feet, or that the creature can take one extra hit more than what their hit point total might suggest. Because those are just bland game effects that to me distinguish nothing and which also might never actually come up. Is a so-called "orc" still an orc if they never actually fall to 0 hit points and thus trigger their relentless endurance? Or you don't encounter them in complete darkness and thus it's never suggested whether they have darkvision at all? If you require game mechanics in a statblock to suggest a creature but you never actually use those mechanics, how important can they truly be to know what they are? Or is it perhaps more a possibility that the orc is an orc because of how the DM portrays the character as an orc?
Going by that standard, why have any abilities at all? But I understand that in many circumstances, stats are unneeded, which actually is advice in the NPC section of the DMG.
How does the orc behave when approached by the party? How do they react to what the PCs say or do? In my opinion those ideas can be a lot more specific to individual species and creatures and go hundreds of miles further to identify them than a pair of game mechanics in telling us what this orc is and what they are about. And quite frankly I think new players are better off learning and gaining experience with that part of roleplaying than just looking at a chart for a game mechanic in one of the books to just tack onto a statblock in the belief it now turns the creature into a whole new species.
And still, a sentence that says: if you use NPC stat blocks for species that are in the PHB, consider that they have traits like darkvision for consistency.
Others mileage may vary. 🤷‍♂️
 

Goblins and Hobgoblins as Fey means Hold Person, Charm Person, Crown of Madness, Dominate Person etc will no longer work on them. This is quite a change.
A lot of folks around here seem to not understand why anyone cares about that though.
 

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