D&D 5E 4E Cosmology

Anything that operates by a Lagrangian (for non-math folks: anything where calculus works smoothly, no weird jumps or gaps) and possesses a symmetry (e.g. "physics is the same whether you're spinning CW or CCW") is mathematically proven to have a conservation law, for example.
You can prove the mathematics is true, but you cannot prove reality runs by mathematics, and even if it does, you cannot prove you are using the right mathematics. Maths is a human invented tool, like a hammer. And is equally as good as hammer for answering the question "what is Truth?" There is experiential evidence that certain conservation laws are not always true, and in science, experiment always trumps theory.
 

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My view on the "truth" of things planar, spatial, and chronological uses a fictional version of the uncertainty principle. What we see directly in front of us is "true" in the immediate sense. However, when perceiving events across time, space, or dimensions—such as through scrying—what we observe may only be one possible version of what exists, shaped by the perspective of the observer. If one were to travel there in person, the destination might not align perfectly with previous remote observations. This is not unlike how divination magic in many D&D settings acknowledges the uncertainty of the future. In my personal cosmology, this uncertainty extends not just to the future but also—though to a lesser degree—to the past, distant locations, and other planes.

By traveling and reporting their findings, explorers create causal links between places—weak at first, but strengthened as others follow in their footsteps and confirm their observations. This raises a question: Does the universe exist before it is explored? While we cannot prove this one way or another, in my interpretation, historians and archaeologists shape our understanding of the past by defining it through research. But does this process only reveal the past, or does it subtly shape what "truly happened"? If a historian uncovers evidence disproving a legend, was that legend false before their discovery? Or do both the disproven myth and the historian’s facts exist in some way, each with differing levels of causal strength?

A real-world historical example is Francisco de Orellana, the Spanish explorer who, in 1541-1542, became the first European to navigate the Amazon River. His reports described large, complex civilizations along the riverbanks. However, later explorers, such as Jesuit missionary Samuel Fritz (1689-1707), did not report seeing such civilizations. If these societies existed, they may have been devastated by European diseases before later Europeans could observe them, note the rather long time that elapsed. Orellana’s once-dismissed accounts are now being reconsidered, as archaeologists have found traces of large Amazonian civilizations.

In my cosmology, Orellana’s reports created a weak causal link between Europe and the Amazonian civilization. However, because his claims were not widely accepted, the connection remained fragile. By the time later travelers arrived, the link had faded, and they found the river but not the civilization. Could that civilization still exist in an alternate world, one that we no longer have access to?

This effect is even more pronounced when the Far Realm is involved. In my setting, cause and effect do not follow logical patterns there, and Prime Material locations influenced by the Far Realm may experience similar instability in their causal relationships.

So, does an ultimate "true reality" exist behind all this? I’d suggest that it does, but that this reality is shaped by a subconscious, collective agreement among conscious minds. What most people believe to be real becomes real. If every child believes in monsters under the bed, such creatures come into existence. If people believe fairies dwell in a distant hill, they do. If a widespread faith holds that St. Cuthbert’s realm is a celestial domain where his followers labor eternally to improve the universe, that belief make it real. Whether these things existed before people believed in them may be a moot question—but that wouldn’t stop natural philosophers from investigating, which in turn could affect what is perceived as real.

In my cosmology, not all beliefs hold equal weight—scholars with deeper knowledge might outweigh the beliefs of the masses, influencing reality more directly. I haven't fully explored the implications of this idea, but it could be an interesting concept to develop in play. That said, this discussion is mostly something a friend and I enjoy exploring outside the game, and it doesn’t have a direct impact on gameplay.

This post was written with the help of ChatGPT. I don't want to derail this thread, I am just making observations about my method, to discuss this we need another thread. I first asked about Francisco de Orellana and Samuel Fritz and, after I had written a version of the text, I asked ChatGPT to check the language (I have a touch of dyslexia) and make the text less confrontational. Thus the many "in my campaign" and similar expressions. But this is definitely my work, not the AI's, to get information about Francisco de Orellana I had to make rather precise questions requiring prior knowledge and the ideas presented are mine.
 
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In Michael Moorcock's The Stealer of Souls (1963) (part of Elric of Melniboné saga), there is a story about how Aubec of Malador creates new lands out of Chaos. After being blessed by Myshella, the sorceress of Law, he travels into the gray, unformed potential of Chaos, creating new lands that are added to the Young Kingdoms setting where he lives. The power of Law ensures they become part of the ordered world rather than remaining undefined potential within Chaos.

In my cosmology, what Aubec of Malador does is that he establishes causal links between the known world and the lands beyond its borders. As he journeys beyond the limits of the Young Kingdoms, he discovers new lands. In the fiction, Moorcock implies he creates these lands, but in my interpretation, he merely creates connections to them. Aubec’s power as a Champion of Law, aided by Myshella, the sorceress of Law, allows him to establish stable causal links to these new lands. The lands he integrates into the world appear to have their own past, history, and culture, which only now become linked to the broader history of the Young Kingdoms. Did these lands already exist? The people who live there certainly claim they did. Is the question even relevant?

While the Elric stories are works of a youthful author and somewhat naïve, I love many of the planar vistas he paints, including a depiction of something very like 4E's Astral Sea in Sailor on the Seas of Fate, first published in 1976.
 
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It is impossible for certain specific kinds of knowledge to be totally complete. Other kinds of knowledge can be complete. Anything that operates by a Lagrangian (for non-math folks: anything where calculus works smoothly, no weird jumps or gaps) and possesses a symmetry (e.g. "physics is the same whether you're spinning CW or CCW") is mathematically proven to have a conservation law, for example.
At this point you're running hard into Godel's theorem. It is impossible to be provably complete. And I'm not saying that we can't set boundaries.
"Connected to", but not located within. Which was the specific point I was making.
Is an island "connected to" the sea or "located within" the sea? I'd say the answer to both can be yes.
Again, these are very simple, basic "how does planar travel work?" claims, that cannot all be simultaneously true. You have:
What you have that is demonstrably true is (a) there is a spell called Plane Shift and (b) the text of the spell called Plane Shift has changed between editions. In specific the 3.0 and 3.5 versions of the spell come with the text "From the Material Plane, the character can reach any other plane, though the character appears 5 to 500 miles (5d%) from the character's intended destination." specifically prioritising the material plane - while the 5e version has the line "Alternatively, if you know the sigil sequence of a teleportation circle on another plane of existence, this spell can take you to that circle."

3.0 and 3.5 Planar Travel rules are not the same as 5e's, with 3.0 and 3.5 explicitly prioritising the Material Plane and 5e explicitly allowing any plane to any plane if you have a teleportation circle to point at.
I don't see any way that it is possible for all three of these statements to be completely true--which, again, is what I was told before, that two people can uphold any two of these models and both be completely correct.
And no one is completely correct.
The World Tree's planar travel explicitly excludes things that the other two explicitly permit.
Here I would argue that the problem isn't with the World Tree - but with your personal interpolations. With the mechanics of the 5e Plane Shift spell then the 3.0/3.5 version of the World Tree that you personally are taking forward despite it not actually being canon is demonstrably incorrect.

This isn't a necessary problem with the World Tree - it is that you are trying to add things to the 5e version of the World Tree that were true in 3.0 and 3.5 but that are explicitly false in 5e. And yes if you add false things to a model it does bad things to the model - but the problem is not with using the World Tree in 5e, it is that you are adding things from previous editions without checking whether they are true. And when you add something false to fill in a possible gap you are blaming the model not your personal interpolation.
And what I keep telling you is that someone else in this thread explicitly said that they were ACTUALLY true. That each person's perceptions were, in fact, true, in the same sense, of the same thing, at the same time. That is what I'm negatively reacting to.
So go find them to argue with.
If you assert that the books have these reams and reams of information about the Great Wheel and that they're just really wrong...
I don't any more than I assert that an atlas has reams of information and it's just really wrong. Despite the fact that every single map in that atlas is distorted.

What I do assert, however, is that the 5e Great Wheel is not the pre-4e Great Wheel, and I assert that this is trivially demonstrable because of the prominent presence of things like the Feywild, the Shadowfell, and the Elemental Chaos. And therefore that anything written about the Great Wheel before 2014 (or D&D cosmology in general before 2014) might be used for inspiration but can not be taken as canon.
 

I'm not fully familiar with the modern Great Wheel. But as I posted upthread, I think the Great Wheel has an "ordering" that the 4e cosmology does not: because each outer plane is associated with an alignment, the planes can be ordered to create a structure that is the same as the alignment graph. This is not true of the 4e astral domains.
The question here is whether the Great Wheel by definition contains all possible Outer Planes. I believe the Outlands still exist and are part of the outer planes, therefore the sixteen planes of the Great Wheel are the sixteen prioritised and well known alignment-planes rather than a total description of all the Outer Planes.
In the original MotP, and I think in Planescape, this structure is reinforced by the existence of portals linking "adjacent" outer planes, so that (eg) travel from the Abyss to Pandemonium is "straightforward" in a way that travel from the Abyss to Elysium is not.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that the modern Great Wheel has got rid of (or, at least, ignores) the portal stuff. But the structure based on alignment is still there.
Almost the reverse. 5e "practical cosmology" has the Teleportation Circle spell with permanent teleportation circles that are quasi-semi open portals that can be made by 9th level PCs, and has the Feywild complete with the tropes of fairy rings. In the "classic" Great Wheel portals were big and important things but they are now a whole lot less significant. I don't know whether they still exist - but they might just not be mentioned for good reason.
 

And no one is completely correct.
Which is not what I was told. In this very thread. By more than one person. So I'm not sure why we're arguing.

Here I would argue that the problem isn't with the World Tree - but with your personal interpolations. With the mechanics of the 5e Plane Shift spell then the 3.0/3.5 version of the World Tree that you personally are taking forward despite it not actually being canon is demonstrably incorrect.
Do you have a citation for this? Because you're talking about two different things.

Thing One: "You can use plane shift to travel between any two planes you like." I have never disputed this.

Thing Two: "You can travel specifically by using the Astral Plane to go directly between any two planes you like."

Do you have a citation to prove that the latter is false in 5e? Because if you don't, 5e's default has always been that what came before is true unless contradicted, when it comes to cosmology.

So go find them to argue with.
Perhaps this is advice we could both apply?

I don't any more than I assert that an atlas has reams of information and it's just really wrong. Despite the fact that every single map in that atlas is distorted.
There is a difference between "tiny inaccuracies which don't particularly matter and which aren't fundamental to existence" and...the things I've been talking about. Fundamental stuff. Where souls go. Whether you can or can't travel directly between two planes via the Astral. Whether or not certain planes even exist at all.

This was literally something where someone in this thread said that the fact of the matter is that two people can, fully correctly, see things that cannot both be true simultaneously. They just...are. They claimed the books explicitly support this and provided 5e-speciifc citation thereto, the bit about how looking at the planes, you might see a nigh-infinite vista in one case and a tiny speck in another.

What I do assert, however, is that the 5e Great Wheel is not the pre-4e Great Wheel, and I assert that this is trivially demonstrable because of the prominent presence of things like the Feywild, the Shadowfell, and the Elemental Chaos. And therefore that anything written about the Great Wheel before 2014 (or D&D cosmology in general before 2014) might be used for inspiration but can not be taken as canon.
Whereas I was under the impression--as is the case with a great many things in 5e--that unless something is specifically and explicitly contradicted, it remains true. The "discovery" of the Feywild and Shadowfell is canon, certainly. But why should we presume that absolutely every prior book is total trash? That's not how D&D has done things--even when it does completely upend the cosmology.
 

Do you have a citation for this? Because you're talking about two different things.
I literally gave a citation - the text of the relevant Plane Shift spells. And plane shifting has emphatically changed.
Thing Two: "You can travel specifically by using the Astral Plane to go directly between any two planes you like."
If you want a reference to the Astral Plane in specific then another spell that has changed is Astral Projection. In the 3.5 version (which I don't think was changed from 3.0) you explicitly leave your bodies back on the material plane and when you leave the Astral Plane you form a new body and equipment (magic item duplicator?) In the 5e version there is no restriction on where you leave your body so not even the hint of a restriction as to which plane you can cast Astral Projection from and if you leave the astral plane your body is transported not recreated.

3.X Astral Projection explicitly prioritises the Material Plane and the 3.X World Tree is consistent with this as it was a feature of 3.X cosmology. 5e Astral Projection has no such prioritisation and neither does 5e cosmology - so if you try forcing the 3.X World Tree into 5e cosmology without paying any attention at all to the changes between the cosmologies you will be wrong because the cosmology has changed. And this is not a problem with the world tree but with the attempt to force material from another edition in with no care for the changes between editions.
There is a difference between "tiny inaccuracies which don't particularly matter and which aren't fundamental to existence" and...the things I've been talking about. Fundamental stuff. Where souls go. Whether you can or can't travel directly between two planes via the Astral. Whether or not certain planes even exist at all.
Where souls go I agree is fundamental - and a matter for the world. But whether you can use the Astral to planar travel between two planes is not relevant to anyone that I'm aware of outside Spelljammer and 17th level casters - and it has explicitly changed. As for whether planes even exist, there's a difference between not existing and not being able to be found right now. I do not consider the 16 normally listed outer planes the limits to the set.
This was literally something where someone in this thread said that the fact of the matter is that two people can, fully correctly, see things that cannot both be true simultaneously. They just...are. They claimed the books explicitly support this and provided 5e-speciifc citation thereto, the bit about how looking at the planes, you might see a nigh-infinite vista in one case and a tiny speck in another.
I'm curious about this "fully correctly" rather than just correctly. And the example given, sure. Things look smaller when you are further away.
Whereas I was under the impression--as is the case with a great many things in 5e--that unless something is specifically and explicitly contradicted, it remains true.
And I was under the impression that where something is even indirectly contradicted you take the new source. And that no one in their senses goes through old books with page references to say they are incorrect. You can use previous editions material but you can not just slap it in there with no thought, care, or attention because there are differences, some subtle and some major.
 

This was literally something where someone in this thread said that the fact of the matter is that two people can, fully correctly, see things that cannot both be true simultaneously. They just...are. They claimed the books explicitly support this and provided 5e-speciifc citation thereto, the bit about how looking at the planes, you might see a nigh-infinite vista in one case and a tiny speck in another.

<snip>

Whereas I was under the impression--as is the case with a great many things in 5e--that unless something is specifically and explicitly contradicted, it remains true. The "discovery" of the Feywild and Shadowfell is canon, certainly. But why should we presume that absolutely every prior book is total trash? That's not how D&D has done things--even when it does completely upend the cosmology.
There is a significant methodological tension between these two paragraphs.

If a 5e book says P, which entails not-Q, and a previous D&D book has said Q, then it seems there are two possibilities: 5e rejects Q, or 5e is contradictory. If there is no 5e book that expressly affirms Q (and hence the contradiction), then the first possibility seems more likely, doesn't it?
 

There is a significant methodological tension between these two paragraphs.

If a 5e book says P, which entails not-Q, and a previous D&D book has said Q, then it seems there are two possibilities: 5e rejects Q, or 5e is contradictory. If there is no 5e book that expressly affirms Q (and hence the contradiction), then the first possibility seems more likely, doesn't it?
If I'm being perfectly honest? No. I'm really not willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on that. It wouldn't be the first time WotC has done something I consider to be of equal or greater foolishness.
 

This seems to be a cool setting to let PCs become god in. But then I am an optimist. :)
Oh sure, becoming a god is definitely on the table!

Chapter 1: Armageddon in a Box
Chapter 2: Armageddon for Fun and Profit
Chapter 3: Armageddon two, Armageddon harder
Chapter 4: Armageddon is Prologue

But, the gods already lost to the end of the world already.
 

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