D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[delericho]

You get references to non-evil orcs in Many-Arrows (which was reconned to being a ruse to get it's neighbors to let down their guard)

Genuine question (because I simply hadn't seen it confirmed before): when did that retcon happen?

 

[Remathilis]

Honestly this is probably just because something about menacing orcs just works. People like imagining a savage orc horde on the the warpath

Oh sure. Just like people envision certain groups of people have certain traits because it reinforces their worldview and that is comforting.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Oh sure. Just like people envision certain groups of people have certain traits because it reinforces their worldview and that is comforting.

That wasn’t my point at all

 

[Remathilis]

Genuine question (because I simply hadn't seen it confirmed before): when did that retcon happen?

Grand History of the a Realms apparently. They warred with Mithril Hall and has eyes for Silver moon. I don't have the book to confirm anything, but that's what the wiki says.

 

[TwoSix]

What I don't like about that answer is that humanoids are supposed to have free will. We would not say "Moradin is Lawful Good and instilled Law and Goodmess in dwarves. Therefore, chaotic and or evil dwarves are extremely rare. You should always be able to trust dwarves are being honest and fair with you. It goes against their creation to not be."

I mean, we can I guess. All elves are chaotic good, all halflings lawful good, etc. That's just the way their Gods made them. They can't not be, and those who are are outliers, as rare as Drizzt would be. Dalamar is as opposite to his kind as Drizzt is. But generally, we give elves and dwarves a wide array of alignments we say goblins and orcs can have, but rarely do.

Hmm...having 9 major races, each of which is an alignment exemplar, and made that way by their creating god, would be an interesting setting conceit.

 

[Remathilis]

Hmm...having 9 major races, each of which is an alignment exemplar, and made that way by their creating god, would be an interesting setting conceit.

It would work if you're willing to accept that race mixing would be minimal, save for some neutrals.

 

[Lazybones]

I would suspect that 95%+ of the time that orcs have appeared in a D&D game since the game was first released in 1974 it was in the role of villain that the player characters were supposed to fight and kill. Half-orcs have existed since the 1e PH; I don't remember the exact language from that book, but I believe that the subtext was that many if not most of them were the product of rape. Orcs were bad; they did bad things. We can debate the exact wording of the Volo book on orcs, but that clearly hadn't changed much in 42 years.

I personally don't have any problem with any DM making orcs savage, violent, or "evil" in their games, or using them in that "traditional" role. But I think that Wizards of the Coast had legitimate reasons for toning that back in the new "default" version of the game in 2024, and I think it's a valid choice to take them out of the MM now that they have appeared as a playable race in the PH. I still have the stat blocks from my 2014 books and may even use some of them in my 2024 games, since I will continue to have orc villains in my campaigns, as well as human villains, dwarf villains, etc.

 

[ezo]

Hmm...having 9 major races, each of which is an alignment exemplar, and made that way by their creating god, would be an interesting setting conceit.

"concept" not "conceit"... This has happened a few times. Stupid auto-type, huh??

 

[Scribe]

It would work if you're willing to accept that race mixing would be minimal, save for some neutrals.

The species who are close, could of course still work together, and find common ground. It works perfectly fine in my experience.

 

[TiQuinn]

I agree with savage, but not with evil when it tells you orcs are not inherently evil. CAN they be evil, most assuredly, but their culture nor nature dictates this is a "must" IMO.

Well again, I’m back to the dog whistles. If one uses every other word other than evil (their gods are evil, the plane they go to when then die is evil, their traits are evil, they want to kill other civilized races), I’m not going to give the author a pass because they dance around whether they explicitly say orcs are evil. They demonstrated it in their words.