D&D General Drow & Orcs Removed from the Monster Manual

[TwoSix]

For me, this will always be the iconic image I associate with for orcs.

Not this?

 

[billd91]

How about this?

 

[FrozenNorth]

And I am back (again) to the fact violent does not equate to evil, savage does not equate to evil; that sort of thinking is what created many of the horrors in our own past. When one culture viewed another as "savage" or "violent" and assumed (wrongly) it must be evil.

« Orcs survive through savagery and force of numbers. Theirs is a life that has no place for weakness, and every warrior must be strong enough to take what is needed by force. Orcs aren’t interested in treaties, trade negotiations or diplomacy. They care only for satisfying their insatiable desire for battle, to smash their foes and appease their gods. »

So, not evil?

 

[Scribe]

« Orcs survive through savagery and force of numbers. Theirs is a life that has no place for weakness, and every warrior must be strong enough to take what is needed by force. Orcs aren’t interested in treaties, trade negotiations or diplomacy. They care only for satisfying their insatiable desire for battle, to smash their foes and appease their gods. »

So, not evil?

Not evil.

 

[MGibster]

Lots of monsters are fat, have poor hygiene and/or are weak. The only thing at all in there is nerdy, and so what. It's not supposed to be me, you or anyone else.

But let's extend the metaphors. Let's take all the negative stereotypes about gamers. They are antisocial. They are nerds. They are fat. They don't understand hygiene. They are weaklings who can't do a single pushup. They hate girls. Now, let's make a monster named Grognard, make them chaotic evil, and put them in the Monster Manual as creatures to fight or bully.

I can't help but feel personally attacked here!

So the problem is the "'finding' patterns and associations" goes both ways. This is why stereotypes are also bad; just because the intent behind it isn't to further racism doesn't mean that people won't still make those associations. Best to avoid those specific associations altogether.

While I agree with others that sometimes we see patterns where there are none, there are also times when we simply fail to see the patterns because we don't recognize them. There were an awful lot of racist jokes in many of the cartoons I watched as a wee MGibster because I simply didn't recognize them at the time.

A few things. First, I already gave an example of something like this where I am not offended and never will be, because it was coincidental. The goblins from Harry Potter. Despite having similarities with antisemitic references to Jewish people, they were not intended to be representative of those negative depictions, so I find no offense with it.

I saw an interview with Armin Shimerman who was asked about the comparisons between Ferengi and Jews. For those of you who don't know, the Ferengi were a species introduced in Star Trek: The Next Generation, and people have criticized how they're characterization includes common anti-Semitic stereotypes. During the interview, Shimerman said what people saw in the Ferengi depended on where they were from. In England they ask if the Ferengi represent the Irish, in Australia they ask if they're Chinese, etc., etc. Someone here joked (or maybe it wasn't a joke) that orcs were Americans. Which, as an American, I find awesomely hilarious.

 

[ezo]

« Orcs survive through savagery and force of numbers. Theirs is a life that has no place for weakness, and every warrior must be strong enough to take what is needed by force. Orcs aren’t interested in treaties, trade negotiations or diplomacy. They care only for satisfying their insatiable desire for battle, to smash their foes and appease their gods. »

So, not evil?

Not evil.

Well, not "inherently" evil, anyway.

Humans, obviously (look at real life) can be "evil" in what they do. Orc culture is violent, brutal, perhaps even without mercy. They thrive on battle and position by proving who is the strongest, most capable warrior.

Different, maybe (there have been cultures IRL like this amoung humans...), but not inherently evil and deserving to be slaughered on sight without remorse.

Survival of the fittest is not evil.

 

[ezo]

There were an awful lot of racist jokes in many of the cartoons I watched as a wee MGibster because I simply didn't recognize them at the time.

Did they bother you then?

 

[Chaltab]

Not this?

View attachment 395678

You know I thought it was a nice cover but then I saw the word 'claimed' and that's all kinds of nope.

 

[Scribe]

Well, not "inherently" evil, anyway.

Humans, obviously (look at real life) can be "evil" in what they do. Orc culture is violent, brutal, perhaps even without mercy. They thrive on battle and position by proving who is the strongest, most capable warrior.

Different, maybe (there have been cultures IRL like this amoung humans...), but not inherently evil and deserving to be slaughered on sight without remorse.

Survival of the fittest is not evil.

Exactly, nothing about this is 'Evil'.

 

[Dire Bare]

How about this?
View attachment 395680

I loved that book! Opened up a whole new sub-genre for me, "cozy fantasy". The prequel is pretty good too!