D&D (2024) Fireball/Lightning Bolt vs Chromatic Orb?

[VikingLegion]

It looks like the math supports FB over CO in most regards, but what about situationally (and I don't only mean going up against known fire resistant opponents)? If you know tonight's session involves smashing your way through the city's Thieves Guild and expect it to be lousy with level 7+ Rogues - FB is down to 50% damage even on a FAIL, and more likely going to be 0% against super-high DEX enemies.

 

[ezo]

what about situationally (and I don't only mean going up against known fire resistant opponents)?

CO can always be useful situationally, of course, just like any other spell really IME. Friendly-fire avoidance is a key consideration as well.

If you know tonight's session involves smashing your way through the city's Thieves Guild and expect it to be lousy with level 7+ Rogues - FB is down to 50% damage even on a FAIL, and more likely going to be 0% against super-high DEX enemies.

Depending on your game style, in general how likely will something like this happen, though?

Now, in my own game, last week we had a gang of 10 quicklings attacking the party. Our tank dropped a three fireballs (from his necklace) and IIRC only killed two quicklings with them, the rest always evaded the fireballs.

So, in this instance CO (not that he could do that) would have been more useful.

Its a perfectly good spell IMO in 2014, "better" now of course in 2024 with this version, and I see it better as complimentary to something like fireball than replacing it.

 

[FrogReaver]

So, here the problem with your numbers. At 100% chance to hit, there is NO 0 hits. You have to hit the first target. So, assuming the "rounded" 79.5% leap/bounce:

0 hits: 0%
1 hit: 20.5%
2 hits: 16.3%
3 hits: 13.0%
4 hits: 50.2%

Damage should be 23.625 (w/ crits @ 100% attack), yields 69.2 damage.

This makes sense at 100% (is that even possible in 2024???) and is above my 58.91 damage at 95%.

That will do it!

 

[FrogReaver]

I can see why you feel with a much better attack % CO can stand up well to FB and CL.

Out of curiousity, since the bounce is to different targets, if you have advantage on the initial attack roll with CO, do you grant advantage on the bounce attacks against other targets??

I know as DM I wouldn't generally allow that, but it probably would be situational...

In your calculations, when chromatic orb is cast at level 6, are you assuming there’s always 7 potential targets it can hit when calculating its average targets hit?

Because a chromatic orb could be cast at level 6 against 4 or 5 targets. That would presumably decrease its average targets?

 

[Zardnaar]

In your calculations, when chromatic orb is cast at level 6, are you assuming there’s always 7 potential targets it can hit when calculating its average targets hit?

Because a chromatic orb could be cast at level 6 against 4 or 5 targets. That would presumably decrease its average targets?

It still compares favorably to chain lightning and Fireball in that scenario.

Guts telling me level 4+ CO is better assuming your accuracy is higher than 65% (higher the better).

 

[Steampunkette]

Fireball is better BECAUSE it can hit your teammates.

THAT'S MORE DAMAGE, BABY!

 

[Zardnaar]

Fireball is better BECAUSE it can hit your teammates.

THAT'S MORE DAMAGE, BABY!

Heh seen that a few times. Mostly consensual though.

 

[FrogReaver]

It still compares favorably to chain lightning and Fireball in that scenario.

Sure, but the principle I’m talking about applies far more broadly than to just that single level 6 slot scenario.

Guts telling me level 4+ CO is better assuming your accuracy is higher than 65% (higher the better).

Your guts soo wrong. @ezo already ran the numbers. 70% accuracy chromatic orb at level 4 only deals 35.5 average damage if you have 5+ targets. Fireball does 103 damage vs 4 targets.

 

[FrogReaver]

CO can always be useful situationally, of course, just like any other spell really IME. Friendly-fire avoidance is a key consideration as well.


Depending on your game style, in general how likely will something like this happen, though?

Now, in my own game, last week we had a gang of 10 quicklings attacking the party. Our tank dropped a three fireballs (from his necklace) and IIRC only killed two quicklings with them, the rest always evaded the fireballs.

So, in this instance CO (not that he could do that) would have been more useful.

Its a perfectly good spell IMO in 2014, "better" now of course in 2024 with this version, and I see it better as complimentary to something like fireball than replacing it.

What would his chance to hit with chromatic orb have been? I’m betting it would have likely came out worse.

Quickling has AC 16. But causes disadvantage when trying to hit it. I think fireball was probably the better bet there. Even with their evasion. The quicklings all passing their dex saves vs fireball that many times was extremely unlikely.

 

[Zardnaar]

Sure, but the principle I’m talking about applies far more broadly than to just that single level 6 slot scenario.



Your guts soo wrong. @ezo already ran the numbers. 70% accuracy chromatic orb at level 4 only deals 35.5 average damage if you have 5+ targets. Fireball does 103 damage vs 4 targets.

Save for half. CO doesn't and in use it's hitting more like 85% or higher.

In real use not white room.