D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[Minigiant]

But the point being made earlier is that it is impossible not to have an effect with such a weapon, which means if the enemy hp is low enough it's impossible to swing a sword at them and not kill them. This is a problem for some people.

Kinda hard to not hit somebody dazed and tired with a big old piece of steel

Or someone so unskilled and outmatched in prowess they can't defend against your attack

I bet if a Beltholding Champion boxer tried to jab the average ENWorlder, they'd succeed 99% of the time on causing pain. Big Ouch even if they roll a 2.

 

[Lord Twig]

Kinda hard to not hit somebody dazed and tired with a big old piece of steel

Or someone so unskilled and outmatched in prowess they can't defend against your attack

I bet if a Beltholding Champion boxer tried to jab the average ENWorlder, they'd succeed 99% of the time on causing pain. Big Ouch even if they roll a 2.

But you can still miss with a greataxe, or a maul, or a halberd. How come they can miss but the greatsword can't?

And I don't want the solution to be for them all not to miss!

I'll say it again. Just because I (and obviously others) don't like Graze, or the "Damage on a Miss" mechanic in general, doesn't mean that it is objectively bad. It is a matter of preference. Trying to argue and rationalize "No, really! It makes sense!" Isn't going to help. I understand that you can come up with a reason for it, but it doesn't change the fact I don't like it.

Maybe we can talk about some of the good things that came out of 4e that are in the new rules. I like the Bloodied mechanic. I don’t think everything from 4e is bad.

 

[Joshua Randall]

You'll be glad to know that in 4e, (almost) all Daily powers deal damage on a miss, so you can miss with a greatsword or a dagger or a wizard's staff casting a spell or a cleric's holy symbol casting a different kind of spell or a monk's feet or a psion's mental powers... and all those will do damage regardless of the die roll. (They typically deal half damage on a miss.)

So there you go, problem... solved? made far far worse?

---

Bloodied is a good signal to the players that they are accomplishing something. It can also be the trigger for various powers (classically, the dragons who recharge their breath weapons when they go bloodied). Or can mean certain items / attacks do more damage. Or the monster flies into bloodlust. Or or or....

You could arguably do something at 2/3 and 1/3 HP instead but thirds are hard to math. Although it is useful for 3-stage boss monsters.

Or 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 but that feels a bit too many state-changes in one monster.

 

[Lord Twig]

You'll be glad to know that in 4e, (almost) all Daily powers deal damage on a miss, so you can miss with a greatsword or a dagger or a wizard's staff casting a spell or a cleric's holy symbol casting a different kind of spell or a monk's feet or a psion's mental powers... and all those will do damage regardless of the die roll. (They typically deal half damage on a miss.)

So there you go, problem... solved? made far far worse?

Well I will admit my knowledge of 4e is very limited, but yes. Far worse.

Also, I seem to recall that weapons didn't do that much anyway. The power did the damage and you just had to have an "Implement," a.k.a. a weapon, in your hand to use the power. Yeah, that didn't feel very good to me.

Bloodied is a good signal to the players that they are accomplishing something. It can also be the trigger for various powers (classically, the dragons who recharge their breath weapons when they go bloodied). Or can mean certain items / attacks do more damage. Or the monster flies into bloodlust. Or or or....

You could arguably do something at 2/3 and 1/3 HP instead but thirds are hard to math. Although it is useful for 3-stage boss monsters.

Or 3/4, 1/2, 1/4 but that feels a bit too many state-changes in one monster.

Yep. I think just Bloodied at half is good. No need to make it extra complicated.

 

[Minigiant]

But you can still miss with a greataxe, or a maul, or a halberd. How come they can miss but the greatsword can't?

Because WOTC implemented by weapon not generally which was originally how 4e did it.

In 4E any fighter could "Graze" with any weapon by choosing the Reaping Strike exploit. Not just 3 weapons. Any melee weapon if you dedicated on of your choices to it.

That's why it's just a sprinkle of 4e instead of fully embracing it.

I'll say it again. Just because I (and obviously others) don't like Graze, or the "Damage on a Miss" mechanic in general, doesn't mean that it is objectively bad. It is a matter of preference. Trying to argue and rationalize "No, really! It makes sense!" Isn't going to help. I understand that you can come up with a reason for it, but it doesn't change the fact I don't like it

I'm not trying to make you like it.
I'm trying to explain it.

D&D lacks a core Perry mechanic, Dodge mechanic, and Block mechanic.

In D&D if a monk punches you in the face, there is no mechanic to put your arm in front of the fist and block the punch not swinging your arm in the path of the fist to party the punch. Blocking and Parrying are excuses within a amalgamation of all all the mechanics.

I mean your AC doesn't change in melee regardless if armed with a fist, dagger, short sword, longsword, greatsword, or halberd.

Nor is there a feat to do it.

But all shields no matter what size is +2 AC. Oh Caiphon.

I'm not saying you have to like it but D&D simplifies stuff and important stuff disappears into the nebula of narrative. I personally don't stress some details because other details are just as dumb and turns would take forever if we did.

---

Oil of Sharpness is just bootleg liquid residuum from. 4e.

Pour goop on swords to make magic swords.

 

[Ebony Dragon]

I would first like to say that I have a generally positive view of the new 2024 rules. That said, there are certainly things they added that I dislike. And the few things that I relate to 4e (opinions on this I’m sure vary) are not all in the dislike category.

Bloodied and more interesting monster abilities seem influenced by 4e, and I like both of those.

I don't like the removal of the explanation of where monster Armor Class comes from, and I don't like the Gear line that suggests you can only loot what is listed there, despite creatures clearly using weapons that are not listed. But I don't believe that came from 4e.

Gamist handling of weapons that don't worry about how you carry them, how you switch them out so fast, and how you load a crossbow (Crossbow Expert) or pistol (Pirates with semi-automatic flintlocks with infinite clips) without hands I intensely dislike, and I don't think that has anything to do with 4e. This seems more like it came straight from video games.

Graze is blatantly "Damage on a Miss", which I associate with 4e (fair or not), and I don't like it at all. I house rule that any weapon with Graze gets the Push mastery instead.

I hadn't thought much on this topic until now, but I agree with your take on most of this. Graze doesn't bother me as much, but the weapon juggling and semi automatic range weapons really does.

 

[Scribe]

You'll be glad to know that in 4e, (almost) all Daily powers deal damage on a miss

 

[I'm A Banana]

But the fighter with the greatsword? CAN NOT MISS. Two swings and the pixie is dead (assuming 20 Str). Doesn't matter if the pixie is dodging, Disadvantage makes no difference. If the pixie is invisible, as long as the fighter picks the right square, it doesn't matter, he can't miss. Two swings and Splat! Dead.

I'm pretty critical of "damage-on-a-miss," but I kind of like this as a narrative. Yes, correct. The greatsword does not miss. A character with a weapon mastery is a very skilled user of that weapon. Like, top-tier, even at 1st level. And the greatsword is a big sheet of sharp metal. I am 100% OK with the skilled greatsword user essentially filling the space within 5' of them with greatsword ("I'm going to start slashing and walk towards you, if you don't move, and I hit you, it's not my fault!"). If a greatsword user is ever bothered by a mosquito, they can spend 6 seconds wirling around dork and be assured that the mosquito is squished.

I don't think you have to invoke "energy" or anything goofy like that. It's just a bad idea to get near someone who is swinging around a 5-foot chunk of steel with a master's level of skill, because even if they don't chop you in half, they're still gonna smack you around a bit.

That doesn't break my suspension of disbelief too badly, personally.

 

[Lord Twig]

I hadn't thought much on this topic until now, but I agree with your take on most of this. Graze doesn't bother me as much, but the weapon juggling and semi automatic range weapons really does.

I'm pretty critical of "damage-on-a-miss," but I kind of like this as a narrative. Yes, correct. The greatsword does not miss. A character with a weapon mastery is a very skilled user of that weapon. Like, top-tier, even at 1st level. And the greatsword is a big sheet of sharp metal. I am 100% OK with the skilled greatsword user essentially filling the space within 5' of them with greatsword ("I'm going to start slashing and walk towards you, if you don't move, and I hit you, it's not my fault!"). If a greatsword user is ever bothered by a mosquito, they can spend 6 seconds wirling around dork and be assured that the mosquito is squished.

I don't think you have to invoke "energy" or anything goofy like that. It's just a bad idea to get near someone who is swinging around a 5-foot chunk of steel with a master's level of skill, because even if they don't chop you in half, they're still gonna smack you around a bit.

That doesn't break my suspension of disbelief too badly, personally.

Great! I fully expect that not everyone will agree with my opinion on Graze, but I didn't want to stay silent and let people have the misconception that "everyone is okay with it." Nope!

But it's okay that I'm not okay with it. I'm hopeful that it doesn't spread any farther, but if it does, at a certain point I might start looking for another game. It won't be the first or last time I've migrated game systems. I played non-D&D games for many, many years. For now, the annoyances in 2024 are outweighed by the things I like.

 

[Remathilis]

So you make something up in the fiction on the spot in order to explain non-intuitive mechanics?

Sorry, hard pass. I strongly dislike doing that.

Yes. Any time you narrate an action based on the dice, you are making something up. If a PC has an 18 AC and the enemy rolls a 12, how do you describe? The blow deflects off its arrmor? Hits the PCs shield? Maybe the PC dodges the blow. Maybe the opponent swings wild and hits a tree. Maybe the PC parries the blow with his weapon. All of those are equally viable ways of explaining the miss, but the dice doesn't determine which is correct. The DM is making up the fiction to explain why a 12 doesn't hit an 18.

I seriously am beginning to wonder if you improve anything in your game...