D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[Minigiant]

Personally, I think the mundane fighter fantasy in practice is more about using external sources of power, not about being good at something. Fighters fundamentally aren't that talented or skilled relative to other people, instead they project power gathered from stuff picked up during adventuring. That disconnect, I think, is partially responsible for rejection of giving fighters strong class abilities; part of the audience doesn't experience the fighter fantasy as fundamentally being about personal competence.

Which didn't make sense since only the fighter could use magic swords, magic armor, high CON, and high STR.

Which broke the game when mages and priests got access to magic weapons, good AC, high CON, and accurate weapon attacks

Which then begs the question, "how do you make the mages and priests fun while keeping the warriors and experts simple & fun without mandating or restricting magic items on the DM?"

Spoiler: Hmmm..How do ya?

you can't

 

[Remathilis]

AD&D didn't have any assumed math. It was all seat-of-the-pants.

(That might've been your point, though?)

Exactly. Any criticism of 5e's magic item system is essentially a complaint about AD&D's.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Yeah, it's still pretty high magic, it's just that it's all equipment instead of class features. There's been a slow slide into moving more power from swords into fighter class abilities that accelerated suddenly in 4e, and didn't really ratchet back in 5e as far as people seem to think.

Personally, I think the mundane fighter fantasy in practice is more about using external sources of power, not about being good at something. Fighters fundamentally aren't that talented or skilled relative to other people, instead they project power gathered from stuff picked up during adventuring. That disconnect, I think, is partially responsible for rejection of giving fighters strong class abilities; part of the audience doesn't experience the fighter fantasy as fundamentally being about personal competence.

This is why I'm a fan of tech (or magic items) for martials. Plenty of flash and beyond-human capabilities that way.

 

[BrokenTwin]

Part of it was that some monsters required magic items to even damage them so the DM would have to not use a noticeable chunk of the Monster Manual in order to not use magic items.

The other aspect that is often forgotten about is that in pre3e,

1. Only Martials could use most magical weapons
2. Only Martials got extra attacks
3. Only Martials got good benefits from high physical ability scores
4. Casting spells in the open was harder

So only the fighting types could stand up to the biggest threats in combat, damage via magic was harder and most costly, and you couldn't make yourself a warrior with magic items or spells cheaply.

So to kill a lot of stuff before 3e, you almost had to make your warriors fight it and had to give them magic items to do it

You could functionally get part of that back in modern D&D by tweaking the magic item attunement rules. Give the non-caster classes more attunement slots at higher level, maybe with some ribbon abilities that allow them to do things like attune faster or fake attunement x number of times a day.

 

[EzekielRaiden]

Yes we tell these tales, but each tale still has a bit of "innate magic" to why impossible things happen.

Er...no? I specifically cited several of these examples because they DON'T have that. Beowulf. Atalanta. Liu Bu. Rostam. Odysseus. They are literally just really badass mortals. Odysseus is technically the great-grandson of a god, namely Hermes, but he is never at any point characterized as even remotely divine. And literally everyone on that list is not divine. They weren't gods, they weren't demigods, they weren't special inherently magical people. Some are heirs of kings, others aren't. Some are great generals, others aren't. Some were world-class athletes, others weren't. Beowulf stands out especially, since he gloats about doing things like swimming for five or six days straight in full battle armor, and then dives to the bottom of the lake where Grendel's Mother lives...taking HOURS to reach it while holding his breath the whole time.

All of them were people whose skill or strength transcended the limits of what should normally be possible.

Without magic of any kind.

Now if you're suggesting every warrior who takes the "divert river" ability is part demigod, I'll gladly accept it.

Nope! I think people who are 100% purely skill-and-strength type characters can become just so. gorram. GOOD. at what they do, they genuinely pass beyond the limits of the mundane, without becoming "gods" to any extent or "innately magic" or whatever else.

It's called becoming "transmundane" (not a term I invented, but the term I choose to use for this). And yes, it absolutely does have backing in the context of specifically European myth, legend, and folklore. Beowulf, who delays his own death from a mortal neck wound for hours just because he wants to see the treasure and its reburial before he dies. Atalanta, faster than any living human being, just because she'd been raised by motherflippin' bears. Liu Bu, throwing a spear that could kill an enemy commander from a mile away. Odysseus, so cunning and guileful that even his enemies celebrated him as, in Latin, Ulixes sapientissimus graecorum: "Ulysses, craftiest of Greeks" ("sapientissimus" literally means "wisest", but the more accurate translation in this context is "craftiest").

And beyond that, you have things like the "riddle of steel", the blacksmith whose works are magical despite he himself knowing no magic, the bazillion Plucky Upstart Children who survive harrowing experiences with nothing more than some cleverness, tenacity, and audacity.

Purely "martial" character doing "impossible" things is alive and well in fully authentic European tales.

 

[Minigiant]

You could functionally get part of that back in modern D&D by tweaking the magic item attunement rules. Give the non-caster classes more attunement slots at higher level, maybe with some ribbon abilities that allow them to do things like attune faster or fake attunement x number of times a day.

That's what I'm doing for the simple RPG game in writing

There are 3 warrior classes

It's Fighter Analog gets Bonus Magic Slots based on level and "Constitution".Every unused Magic Slot gives you a Bonus Action Point.

The Barbarian Analog has a Magic Blessing or Curse that grants a magical form. Hulks. Werewolves.

And the 3rd has you part of a magical bloodline and you essentially have a suite of free magic items fused to you for superpowers.

Classic "Tech, Magic, Mutant" trio with Action hidden in Tech.

 

[Minigiant]

Nope! I think people who are 100% purely skill-and-strength type characters can become just so. gorram. GOOD. at what they do, they genuinely pass beyond the limits of the mundane, without becoming "gods" to any extent or "innately magic" or whatever else.

That's where D&D's "I hate Complex rules for anything except magic because ruleless magic is even more annoying to DM." shows itself.

 

[Scribe]

Er...no? I specifically cited several of these examples because they DON'T have that. Beowulf. Atalanta. Liu Bu. Rostam. Odysseus. They are literally just really badass mortals. Odysseus is technically the great-grandson of a god, namely Hermes, but he is never at any point characterized as even remotely divine. And literally everyone on that list is not divine. They weren't gods, they weren't demigods, they weren't special inherently magical people. Some are heirs of kings, others aren't. Some are great generals, others aren't. Some were world-class athletes, others weren't. Beowulf stands out especially, since he gloats about doing things like swimming for five or six days straight in full battle armor, and then dives to the bottom of the lake where Grendel's Mother lives...taking HOURS to reach it while holding his breath the whole time.

All of them were people whose skill or strength transcended the limits of what should normally be possible.

Without magic of any kind.


Nope! I think people who are 100% purely skill-and-strength type characters can become just so. gorram. GOOD. at what they do, they genuinely pass beyond the limits of the mundane, without becoming "gods" to any extent or "innately magic" or whatever else.

It's called becoming "transmundane" (not a term I invented, but the term I choose to use for this). And yes, it absolutely does have backing in the context of specifically European myth, legend, and folklore. Beowulf, who delays his own death from a mortal neck wound for hours just because he wants to see the treasure and its reburial before he dies. Atalanta, faster than any living human being, just because she'd been raised by motherflippin' bears. Liu Bu, throwing a spear that could kill an enemy commander from a mile away. Odysseus, so cunning and guileful that even his enemies celebrated him as, in Latin, Ulixes sapientissimus graecorum: "Ulysses, craftiest of Greeks" ("sapientissimus" literally means "wisest", but the more accurate translation in this context is "craftiest").

And beyond that, you have things like the "riddle of steel", the blacksmith whose works are magical despite he himself knowing no magic, the bazillion Plucky Upstart Children who survive harrowing experiences with nothing more than some cleverness, tenacity, and audacity.

Purely "martial" character doing "impossible" things is alive and well in fully authentic European tales.

That all.sounds like Magic to me.

Like, this guy didnt just get strong from a bunch of push-ups.

 

[Joshua Randall]

That all.sounds like Magic to me.

If Odysseus and Atalanta are Magic then everyone is Magic and it’s meaningless.

 

[Scribe]

If Odysseus and Atalanta are Magic then everyone is Magic and it’s meaningless.

I'd have to read up on both to refresh but here.

Beowulf stands out especially, since he gloats about doing things like swimming for five or six days straight in full battle armor

Magic.

and then dives to the bottom of the lake where Grendel's Mother lives...taking HOURS to reach it while holding his breath the whole time.

Magic.

Beowulf, who delays his own death from a mortal neck wound for hours just because he wants to see the treasure and its reburial before he dies.

Magic, certainly.

Liu Bu, throwing a spear that could kill an enemy commander from a mile away.

Magic.

And beyond that, you have things like the "riddle of steel", the blacksmith whose works are magical despite he himself knowing no magic,

Magic.

Purely "martial" character doing "impossible" things is alive and well in fully authentic European tales.

They are not 'purely martial' if they are doing things which are literally impossible.