D&D 5E 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[Remathilis]

captain america is so SO far behind being anywhere near the martial equivalent of a 20th level caster though it's ridiculous! archwizard magnificus rocks up with the capabilities of Gate, Meteor Swarm, Shapechange, Time Stop and Wish and we're meant to believe cap stands on equal footing with that guy? I would barely average him as an 8th level character in DnD, how do you claim with a straight face that cap is a 20th level character?

And NOTHING is going to match those powers unless you're gonna give them supernatural abilities. Superman at his most powerful versions might compete, but that's when he can fly into space and circle the Earth counterclockwise to travel back in time powerful. And you've already established no flights and no supernatural abilities. So by your own standards the martial can't compete.

 

[Metroido]

A level 20 martial might be more like Iron Man. A mundane human, but he's got really powerful, "magic" armor, weapons, and equipment.

 

[I'm A Banana]

To be fair, isn't this an Artificer? This is pretty much how artificers work, for the most part. Granted, Artificers also get spells, but, IME, it's more along the line of "Well, once in a while I'm going to use a spell, but, most of the time, I'm plunking away with my magic doohickey"

Nah, this kind of Fighter never casts spells.

But, their capabilities are not limited by what a "normal person" could do, because they have the skill and superhuman ability to wield items that can shape the multiverse.

Because the difference between a Fighter and a Wizard isn't about combat capability, it's about what they're capable of in the narrative of the game, and this brings the Fighter to parity.

D&D's a magical game about magical people who do magical things and the Fighter and Rogue shouldn't be exempted from that (or, really, be relegated to "swing sword real good" / "hide real good").

 

[CreamCloud0]

And NOTHING is going to match those powers unless you're gonna give them supernatural abilities. Superman at his most powerful versions might compete, but that's when he can fly into space and circle the Earth counterclockwise to travel back in time powerful. And you've already established no flights and no supernatural abilities. So by your own standards the martial can't compete.

superman would still have his physical power, his toughness, his supersenses, his...actually i don't know if he really has a healing factor but i assumes there's something in there somewhat, and skill and technique, that superman martial i would believe would compete on the level of archwizards, not in their ability to manipulate time and space obviously, because that's trying to judge a fish on it's ability to climb a tree, but he would be an unrivalled warrior in combat, perfectly able to take down the foes 20th level adventurers tackle.

 

[Remathilis]

superman would still have his physical power, his toughness, his supersenses, his...actually i don't know if he really has a healing factor but i assumes there's something in there somewhat, and skill and technique, that superman martial i would believe would compete on the level of archwizards, not in their ability to manipulate time and space obviously, because that's trying to judge a fish on it's ability to climb a tree, but he would be an unrivalled warrior in combat, perfectly able to take down the foes 20th level adventurers tackle.

The issue isn't that the martials aren't holding their own in combat. It's that they aren't holding their own anywhere else. Wish isn't a combat spell, it's a "solve plot" button. Having 20 attacks per round isn't impressive when your enemy just teleports to the other side of the world. Oh, your 20th level fighter can jump over a castle wall? How nice, the warlock has been doing that since 2nd level.

I just don't think you can buff their combat numbers enough to make up for the raw versatility of spells like simulacrum or teleport.

 

[Micah Sweet]

no, why shouldn't a mundane martial be able to go toe-to-toe with gods, demons and eldritch abominations and come out victorious? they manage to in stories, they have in previous editions even! and if people want to play those kinds of characters then they should be able to.

What stories?

 

[Hussar]

Nah, this kind of Fighter never casts spells.

But, their capabilities are not limited by what a "normal person" could do, because they have the skill and superhuman ability to wield items that can shape the multiverse.

Because the difference between a Fighter and a Wizard isn't about combat capability, it's about what they're capable of in the narrative of the game, and this brings the Fighter to parity.

D&D's a magical game about magical people who do magical things and the Fighter and Rogue shouldn't be exempted from that (or, really, be relegated to "swing sword real good" / "hide real good").

I agree with this. Was just more pointing to a class where the majority of the class’ abilities lie in gear. Strip out the straight up casting and give the class a bit more attack and you’ve got something pretty close to a fighter with items that level with the character.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I agree with this. Was just more pointing to a class where the majority of the class’ abilities lie in gear. Strip out the straight up casting and give the class a bit more attack and you’ve got something pretty close to a fighter with items that level with the character.

Yeah, this is the idea! There needs to be some kind of excuse for why others can't wield it, but that's not much of a hurdle.

This is ~kind of~ the intent behind some very old D&D design (why fighters get so many weapon/armor proficiencies is, in part, because the "best" magic items are things that only they can wield), and is one potential way to address the angst over martial characters not being able to raise people from the dead or grant wishes or whatever. Now they can, just via legendary items that they can wield rather than legendary spells that they can cast.

 

[Hussar]

Yeah, this is the idea! There needs to be some kind of excuse for why others can't wield it, but that's not much of a hurdle.

This is ~kind of~ the intent behind some very old D&D design (why fighters get so many weapon/armor proficiencies is, in part, because the "best" magic items are things that only they can wield), and is one potential way to address the angst over martial characters not being able to raise people from the dead or grant wishes or whatever. Now they can, just via legendary items that they can wield rather than legendary spells that they can cast.

I suppose, at the end of the day, to bring fighters up, the magic items you give have to be things that allow for out of combat effects. It's not really an issue in combat - and that's largely why older versions of D&D got away with it - no one had any real abilities out of combat. Not really. The casters just didn't get enough spells, and, if you go to really old D&D, the spells just didn't exist. I mean, a Basic/Expert MU got, what, six, eight spells per level? I don't mean spell slots. I mean that there were actually only six or eight actual spells per level. So it wasn't like the MU was rewriting the game very often.

But, since 5e allows for a pretty broad spell list (much truncated from, say 3e, but, still pretty broad and gettin broader every year), we'd need to give fighters/rogues abilities that are just as broad. Mjollnir lets Thor fly, after all. That sort of thing. The problem, as you say, comes with limiting who can take the items. Because if the items are free to use for everyone, well, why would I give it to the fighter and not another character?

 

[Remathilis]

I suppose, at the end of the day, to bring fighters up, the magic items you give have to be things that allow for out of combat effects. It's not really an issue in combat - and that's largely why older versions of D&D got away with it - no one had any real abilities out of combat. Not really. The casters just didn't get enough spells, and, if you go to really old D&D, the spells just didn't exist. I mean, a Basic/Expert MU got, what, six, eight spells per level? I don't mean spell slots. I mean that there were actually only six or eight actual spells per level. So it wasn't like the MU was rewriting the game very often.

But, since 5e allows for a pretty broad spell list (much truncated from, say 3e, but, still pretty broad and gettin broader every year), we'd need to give fighters/rogues abilities that are just as broad. Mjollnir lets Thor fly, after all. That sort of thing. The problem, as you say, comes with limiting who can take the items. Because if the items are free to use for everyone, well, why would I give it to the fighter and not another character?

This is another one of those "no good answer" questions. Assuming we want a fighter to be empowered by his gear to match a caster of equal level, getting them that item is as decisive. Does he just get it for leveling up? That's metagamey. Does he make his own? That's magical. Does the DM have to include it in the hoard? Then the player is slave to the whims of the DM.* You're never going to find a workable solution that doesn't alienate some part of the player base.


* The best equivalent I can think of is if the DM had total control over what spells ac caster can use. As in the old "wizard spells are only found during adventuring, cleric and druids have their spells picked for them by their deity, etc". Ymmv if that is a good thing.