D&D 5E What is the Deal with the Twilight Cleric?

[Zardnaar]

It's a load of good stuff on one chassis. Flight, martial weapons etc.

The ball breaking ability is the mass hp granting. It out performs spells that do something similar at low opportunity cost. In essence every fight. It out performs healing as well.

And that's on top of your spells and every other ability as well. On one of the strongest classes in the game.

It's also a fun suck IRL. Saw it once been banned ever since. Slows everything down, makes summons a major PITA etc.

Think it's one of 3 or 4 banned archetypes. The other one Shepard Druid for power and others are because they're bad.

 

[Distracted DM]

Let's level-set. This is not 3E Pun-Pun, or Ice Assassins and Demiplanes, or Find City nukes/commoner black holes or other things which, if allowed, end your campaign (or all normality within it). It's not even 3E Hulking Hurler/5E nuclear wizard madness that is easily defeated but still takes one aspect like damage and throws the norms completely out the window. I don't even know if it's a strictly-best character choice. It's more like AD&D 2e's bladesinger kit*, in that it is an almost-strictely-better option.
*the2E bladesinger kit as an elf-only kit for multiclass F/MUs which was a few RP restrictions, plus mechanical benefit. Which seems OP, but doesn't change that in 2E (where they can't cast in armor), F/MU are not some kind of runaway uber-class.

But you have to really TRY to make Pun-Pun, or all the other crazy stuff that usually wouldn't fly at a table. A twilight cleric is a normal character, which any GM unfamiliar with the subclass probably won't see a problem with until the game starts. Then, over a few sessions, eyebrows are going up. A few more sessions and you're struggling with how this is legit, and how to challenge the party without outright stomping them into the ground. It also help kill GM fun of challenging the party... fear or charm? Ha, naw. And then you want to focus on the TC? They have heavy armor and, for some reason, flight... BUT their awesome aura is huuuge so they can fly AND still give it to the party.

Yeah, it's been discussed to death at this point. Folk already linked old threads, and y'all have provided good reasons here.

 

[Misanthrope Prime]

Also strictly for me, I just disliked the theme of the entire subclass. I didn't understand how "twilight" played into this classes abilities. I know that's very arbitrary of me, but if you want to sell me on something, tell me what the class or ability is and why it exists. Very strong healing magic plus flight plus a pretty strong custom spell list on a cleric of twilight. It felt like a grab bag.

That's the thing about this subclass that baffles me the most. It's got such a specific fantasy archetype that it's evoking but I don't understand where this archetype comes from. It's almost as if someone took a cleric class from their homebrew world and just dumped it in a D&D book.

Whenever I try to square the difference and think of what fantasy roles it could fill in a more generic case, I think it steps on the toes of the Oath of the Watchers paladin and multiple varieties of ranger a bit too much.

 

[Zardnaar]

But you have to really TRY to make Pun-Pun, or all the other crazy stuff that usually wouldn't fly at a table. A twilight cleric is a normal character, which any GM unfamiliar with the subclass probably won't see a problem with until the game starts. Then, over a few sessions, eyebrows are going up. A few more sessions and you're struggling with how this is legit, and how to challenge the party without outright stomping them into the ground. It also help kill GM fun of challenging the party... fear or charm? Ha, naw. And then you want to focus on the TC? They have heavy armor and, for some reason, flight... BUT their awesome aura is huuuge so they can fly AND still give it to the party.

Yeah, it's been discussed to death at this point. Folk already linked old threads, and y'all have provided good reasons here.

Yeah it's broken all by itself.

In 3E you kinda needed to know how to break it. Druid you could still stumble into it.

 

[TiQuinn]

That's the thing about this subclass that baffles me the most. It's got such a specific fantasy archetype that it's evoking but I don't understand where this archetype comes from. It's almost as if someone took a cleric class from their homebrew world and just dumped it in a D&D book.

Whenever I try to square the difference and think of what fantasy roles it could fill in a more generic case, I think it steps on the toes of the Oath of the Watchers paladin and multiple varieties of ranger a bit too much.

Someone said "Twilight", and thought that means they get both Light based powers and Shadow based powers, so let's pick some of the best of both. And oh yeah, they can fly too.

 

[Clint_L]

*Outside of a really contrived sniper-with-300'-darkvision scenario, you do not win because of this -- you simply come out of fights you probably would have won anyways with significantly less loss and perhaps significantly fewer resources expended.

This, I disagree with because I have lived it. As another thread currently explores, combat in D&D is typically attritional, and when you are running a Twilight character competently, your channel divinity obviates much of the attrition for the entire party, for an entire fight.

As I mentioned, I played one through the first part of Rime (the campaign eventually petered out). I initially took the class because I figured the group darkvision would be incredibly useful in that environment (it was). But I hadn't fully anticipated how overwhelmingly powerful Twilight Sanctuary would be. Our party was me, a barbarian, a rogue, and an artificer. We punched way above our level because weaker mobs simply couldn't do much, if any damage through my free healing, and even tougher mobs struggled to do much against our barbarian, between the free healing and their damage reduction.

It's a really powerful ability. And at level 2 (okay, level 3, now)!

 

[Burnside]

Having had one in our group from levels 1-13 in Baldur's Gate: Descent into Avernus and seen them in play many times, the problem, as others have stated, is Twilight Sanctuary. By the time you reach level 7 or 8, it begins to feel more on-par with what other classes are doing. But it comes online at level 2. The issues are most apparent at levels 2-4, when it can absolutely trivialize encounters. Basically, it's an ability that should probably be acquired at level 6, and instead shows up at level 2.

If run as written, it's also just mechanically clunky and slows down combat turns with everyone in the party rolling for temps at the end of their, turn every turn. I have house-ruled this so that the twilight cleric rolls once at the end of their own turn, and that's the amount everyone else collects at the end of their respective turns.

I also have thematic questions about the class. WHY heavy armor? WHY flying? What about those things embodies "twilight"?

Also, in the Tasha's era forward, the designers seem in love with temporary hit points, and the 2024 rules embrace them even further. I pretty much hate temporary hit points and don't understand why ways to get them keep multiplying.

I don't think the Twilight Cleric is unplayable or game-breaking, but it definitely can cause issues, especially in Tier 1 play. DMs will generally need to toughen encounters because of them.

 

[Horwath]

as mentioned by few people in this thread, 1st and 2nd level as stacked to the max.

300ft darkvision is nothing special if only you have it, but wait, you can share it with your whole party.
Now everyone has 300ft of darkvision

if it was +60ft of darkvision it would still be OK, then even there is no need for usage cap.
just give creatures of choice +60ft darkvision while they are withing 60ft of you.

martial weapons, armors and initiative boost are just good cherry on top.

2nd level.
wow, talk about getting a feat on steroids.
it's Inspiring leader once per round for 10 rounds, while the feat is once per short rest.
and there is no cap on number of targets, they just need to squeeze into 30ft radius of you. that is over 100 targets. Per round.
you could give over 1000 troops temp HP for one usage of channel divinity.

better way would be, you get 5+cleric level temp HP, while you have this temp HPs you are immune to being charmed or frightened.

one use of channel divinity, one instance of temp HP. just a slightly better version of Inspiring leader. saves on a feat.

 

[Stalker0]

So here is how to think of Twilight Sanctuary. You know the 2024 monk, that is so improved that some have even whispered "this might even be overpowered"? A lot of that comes from the deflect attacks ability.

Now imagine a cleric having an ability that gave about half as much damage reduction, against any damage (not just physical), without needing any reaction, every round of a fight....for your entire party.

Yeah its just that broken.

 

[Deset Gled]

Twilight Cleric: overpowered and unplayable? or tempest in a teapot?

I played a Twilight Cleric for about a year (5e 2014). IMNSHO, the best description is "power creep".

The TC is not broken. It will not spoil a game. It is, however, noticeably better that any cleric from the PHB (and probably most other 5e 2014 cleric subclasses). Not by enough to be blatantly overpowered, but by enough that you can tell.

If you're the sort to worry a lot about balance, power, or maintaining a status quo, you could consider banning it. If you don't really care about such things, use it freely. It's not as bad as Silvery Barbs, but it could fuel the flames of discord if you have players that complain about casters vs martials.