D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

riddle me…

why are OSR games mostly closer to Moldvay Basic than bells-and-whistles 2E?
2e overdid it with splatbooks, I did not use them then and there is no point in replicating them in the OSR now.

That being said, I wish the OSR were interested in creating something more than BX over and over again. I do not see much point in that.

why is 5E closer to 3E than 4E?
because 4e was rejected by (most of) the player base
 
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that treadmill started a lot earlier, 1e to 2e was that treadmill already
Again, so much of this is how it's framed. After all, 2e saw the release of a metric buttload of material. Was that "planned obsolecence"? Or not? After all, if you cared about the "story" of various settings, you needed to constantly buy new products to see how that setting advanced. Rules and mechanics were constantly shifting as well - the various Complete books added all sorts of rules to the base setting and became largely the default of the game.

That's why 3e, when it rolled out, insisted on the notion of "Core Books". Previously, you didn't have anything like a core. Gamers were presumed to have all the books and later books often referenced other books with the presumption that you were buying all the books.

Sure, we had edition churn between 3e and 5e - but, we've had 10 years of 5e now. With 2024 not being a huge change. I'm running Out of the Abyss right now with a bit of a hodge podge of different rules and not seeing any problems so far. If I can run a 9 year old module using the latest version of the rules and not really see any difference, I'm thinking that "evergreen" is definitely the right description.

But, of course, cue the "BUT BUT BUT IT'S A NEW EDITION" screeds. 🤷
 

2e and overdid it with splatbooks, I did not use them then and there is no point in replicating them in the OSR now.

That being said, I wish the OSR were interested in creating something more than BX over and over again. I do not see much point in that.


because 4e was rejected by (most of) the player base
ie “some changes make the game worse”

or

“some changes support one type of play over another and are not an improvement and preferring a style thats now unfavoured is not conservatism
 

As does this: there's a sense that we're starting to see the equivalent of planned obsolecence in game design, where a game is expected to last x-number of years after which a new version will come out whether needed or not, all to keep that treadmill going.

Yes 5e was touted as being evergreen, and thus far - to its credit - has at least kept most of its leaves. But the new version still smells of "treadmill".
Anyone who thought 5e was actually going to be "evergreen": I have a bridge I'd like to sell you.

Your "planned obsolescence" thing suffers from a critical problem: Games' flaws are never seen until it's been out in the wild awhile. It's not like a piece of software that patches can be issued for. It's not like a blender, where the one thing you want it to do never meaningfully changes.

The things we want from D&D do change over time. And, as you can see with the immense hostility to even the whisper of true errata, people genuinely hate anything that looks even remotely like patching up problems.

These things combine to ensure that no edition will ever be "evergreen". Neither WotC nor TSR did enough rigorous playtesting to comprehensively identify the serious problems in whatever they produced--and their game design "goals" are sufficiently diffuse and/or incoherent to be easily "met" without truly doing the things the designers really wanted, just superficially seeming to.

Instead, we are left with edition after edition where the trunk is riddled with invisible rot before the branches are even grown. The invisible rot is still there, though, and becomes more and more obvious over time. Eventually, it becomes too much to deal with as designers, and/or players become sufficiently annoyed that they start branching out and looking elsewhere. This is a big part of why "re-release" editions--like 3.5e and 5.5e--never last as long as the original did, even if they breathe new life in for a little while. Re-releases don't remove the rot, they just clear some of it away and reinforce the trunk--and most of the most serious problems can't be removed that way.

The irony, of course, is the only edition that actually could have been evergreen--because it DID in fact allow for the possibility of patching the rules over time!--was shouted down as being The Biggest, Most Awful, Most Tragic Event in ~~Human~~ D&D History, and that very specific thing was often cited as one of the issues, albeit like 10th on the list rather than the top ones that came up all the time.
 

Isn't change vs. progress when discussing games determined by the end user?
If i like the change its progress. If i don't like the change its just change.
Not necessarily. Technique can become objectively better, independent of end-user review. E.g. the presence of "funnel" adventures in Dungeon Crawl Classics is an objective improvement over not having them, even if you aren't interested in the stuff the game is doing, because it provides a clear solution to a common problem actually encountered by people who want the old-school style stuff, without doing any harm to those who don't want to use funnels.
 

Yes 5e was touted as being evergreen, and thus far - to its credit - has at least kept most of its leaves. But the new version still smells of "treadmill".
Considering the 50th year anniversary of the game, it smelled a lot more like an opportunity to me.
 

that treadmill started a lot earlier, 1e to 2e was that treadmill already
I don’t necessarily see an edition change as a treadmill, particularly when it’s so compatible. Periodic cleanup and consolidation can be a good thing.
 

A new edition is like a lot like people, I can get onboard if I like 80-90% of what I see. That does not mean that there is a thing or two that I do not like or want to deal with from certain people. 5e is like that and this is a place to come and discuss/complain about changes to that 10-20% we do not like.

A bit like how this thread changed from the 1st post. I see a few post talking about rereading the first post or that is not what the thread is talking about. Then it talks about ho things evolve. I get how the site wants to keep things on topic and not to derail threads and make your own thread and such, but every thread changes over time.

If I was placed in charge of 6e there would be lots of complaining. I could come out with a book and would that be the new game? Maybe, but my ideas are not yours and if I made orcs evil or elves are now humanoids, or bring back what they first thought of hardozee in 5e, there would be complaints. Which ones are more correct? Maybe is depends on sales and house rules. I see that drinking a potion of healing is now a bonus action.

Monopoly actually went through some pretty big changes in the early 21st century, once the math nerds started to go at it with computer simulations and saw some unintended outcomes in layouts, property values, etc. Things were tweaked to make the game more fun as a result.

(And before anyone objects: If you stop with the free money in Free Parking house rule, and auction off any properties the person landing on it doesn't want to buy -- as per RAW -- it's actually a pretty quick and breezy game.)
Is now a good time to talk about not playing the new Monopoly if we do not have flanking Free Parking in the game. ;)
 

Not necessarily. Technique can become objectively better, independent of end-user review. E.g. the presence of "funnel" adventures in Dungeon Crawl Classics is an objective improvement over not having them, even if you aren't interested in the stuff the game is doing, because it provides a clear solution to a common problem actually encountered by people who want the old-school style stuff, without doing any harm to those who don't want to use funnels.
I don’t know what a funnel adventure is. Is having it an actual improvement over not having it…or…are there just people who like them vs. people who don’t?
 


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