D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[Hussar]

My experience is the same, but UA was also, definitely, optional.

But it wasn’t presented that way. The rules in UA showed up in modules, for example. Non-weapon proficiencies from Oriental Adventures and classes from UA both appear in Isle of the Ape.

We may have treated the Complete 2e books as optional but that is not how they were presented.

The words Core don’t appear in DnD until 3e.

 

[Flexor the Mighty!]

Yep. D&D has changed quite a bit from what I want in a RPG over the past few editions. So I just don't buy it and don't play it. That is fine with me. Though it is strange to not have the actual D&D game be part of my hobby for all intents and purposes beyond old edition stuff that I port over to a OSR game. If they gain customers to offset those they lose then they will do fine.

 

[Bedrockgames]

We may have treated the Complete 2e books as optional but that is not how they were presented.

The words Core don’t appear in DnD until 3e.

I had a different experience here. At least by 2E. In all the groups I played 2e with pretty much everyone I knew treated NWPs and the Complete books as optional (and everything tagged optional was up to the GM so it wasn't rare for a GM to okay some things from a complete book and not others). Also most 2E modules I ran didn't assume NWPs. At least for Ravenloft which is what I primarily ran (most modules I remember didn't use them and things like Domains of Dread and the Black box didn't give major NPCs NWP entries). But with 3E the mood was entirely different in that respect.

 

[Levistus's_Leviathan]

nevermind

 

[Greg K]

We may have treated the Complete 2e books as optional but that is not how they were presented.

Wrong. Some gamers may have treated them as non-optional, but they were optional

First, the 2e PHB there was sidebar stating that the Bard, Druid, Ranger, Paladin (along with Priests of Specific Mythoi and Wizard subclasses) were optional. So, by extension, the Complete Books for the Bard, Druid, Ranger, and Paladin would be optional since those classes themselves were optional.

More importantly, my copy of the Thief's Handbook states "The new rules and procedures only become official in campaign where the DM so declares" and the the player should ask their DM to use anything from the book and the DM has the final word. So clearly it is optional and I recall similar statements about them being optional in Complete Fighter's Handbook, Complete Priest's Handbook, and the other Complete class handbooks that my friends and I own/owned.

 

[AlViking]

Meatgrinder-style sounds a lot like the D&D version of the Four Yorkshiremen sketch.
"I remember back in the day when you were lucky to make it to 2nd level."
"2nd level? Our DM used to kill us in the first dungeon."
"You made it through a dungeon? We used to die on the first dungeon level."
"A whole dungeon level? We used to die in the first room!"
"Well, when I say dungeon level, I mean the stairs into the dungeon."
"You guys got to the dungeon?"
"Ah, kids these days, they don't know how good they have it."

Bah, you guys had it easy. Our characters died while they were being created. And half the time the dice exploded when we rolled 'em because we had to make them ourselves out of rocks. Not the good rocks, mind you but the exploding ones! Now get off my lawn!

P.S. this post may be somewhat autobiographical based on how I first learned to write computer code. On a teletype machine with <rant continues>

 

[Staffan]

But it wasn’t presented that way. The rules in UA showed up in modules, for example. Non-weapon proficiencies from Oriental Adventures and classes from UA both appear in Isle of the Ape.

We may have treated the Complete 2e books as optional but that is not how they were presented.

The words Core don’t appear in DnD until 3e.

The back of the Complete Fighter's Handbook says "New weapons, new proficiencies, new fighting styles, and 'Fighter Kits' make this optional AD&D accessory a useful item for players and DMs." So it's pretty clear it's called out as optional. And the 2e PHB and DMG even had a lot of rules in those books called out as optional, including entire chapters.

As for core... there was that whole Core Rules CD.

But to be honest, I think this was a shift from 1e. I started playing with 2e, and when I bought the 1e FR box I was a bit confused by seeing "cavaliers" mentioned as a class, and treating paladins as a subclass of cavalier rather than fighter. I had had some brushes with the 1e PHB, but not with cavaliers. And this wasn't written as "If you use Unearthed Arcana, do bla bla bla" – it was just assumed that you were. But 2e books generally put more emphasis on the fact that the game belongs to the DM, and if you want to make house rules you should (it would be kind of hypocritical for them to argue otherwise given that almost every AD&D setting came with its own rules). 1e material, on the other hand, had a lot more "These are the official rules and if you're not playing by the letter of the law you're not playing REAL AD&D!" My understanding is that that's not how Gygax actually ran his games, but that was the gist of the books, and how it was parodied in Hackmaster.

 

[Staffan]

Bah, you guys had it easy. Our characters died while they were being created.

Goddammit, who invited the Traveller player?

 

[Lanefan]

I do wish that folks who are fans of modern D&D wouldn't ridicule and/or poke fun at folks who aren't. Don't see how that helps anyone.

As long as those same folks don't turn around and complain when we poke fun right back at 'em, we're all good.

 

[AlViking]

Goddammit, who invited the Traveller player?

You caught me. I probably should have never tried to generate a scout admiral(?).