D&D General Doing Tragedy in D&D

[soviet]

So what you are saying is, first and foremost, they are tables.

Encounter tables, treasure tables, XP tables, to-hit tables, crit tables... lotta tables

 

[Theory of Games]

Seems to me that the G is at the end

There's a "game" in "RPG", but no "story"

 

[soviet]

There's a "game" in "RPG", but no "story"

Some things go without saying

 

[Clint_L]

It may be that they come from a different sort of game, like the “story first” type game that @pemerton plays. They may expect to work with the GM and other players to create a reason for them to adventure - or simply role play a visit to a hat shop.

Quite the opposite - they were actively working against attempts to give them a reason to adventure! And going on an adventure is the basic premise of D&D!

I think this is going to be the main issue with doing a seriously tragic storyline line in D&D - if there are players (demonstrably) who resist even the most obvious D&D storylines, a tragedy is going to take players with serious chops, IMO. But if you have that - then awesome! I've played 10 Candles and it was mostly a good time, except we had one player who just could not get with the programme.

 

[Hussar]

D&D is marketed as a role playing game, not an adventure game. It is more reasonable for a player to expect to play a role than go on an adventure.

That's ridiculous.

Every single thing in the game tells the player that they are going to go on adventures. Every single line of the PHB tells them that they are going on an adventure. Nothing in the game tells them that they should make a stay at home character that avoids adventure.

 

[Hussar]

Setting aside the stipulation that acquisition of power (levels, magic items, status, etc.) universally defines a "happy ending"...

Are you saying that power makes one immune to tragedy? There are LOTS of examples of that not being the case. Most, perhaps all, Greek and Shakespearean tragic characters are high-status individuals; in fact, the belief that personal power can be used to forestall a tragic fate is a prominent story element for plenty of those characters.

Also, we've had some examples presented in this thread of powerful PCs who have experienced tragic fates, in spite of however many hit points or magic items they might've possessed. I don't think power, however that's measured, makes much difference in why tragedy is hard to pull off in a game like D&D.

I'm saying that the kind of power that a D&D PC or group of PC's can have at higher levels will make tragedy much, much harder to pull off. As the example goes, Hamlet stabs behind the curtain. Oops, one Revivify spell later and tragedy averted. That only requires a 5th level party. By 15th level, that same party can literally petition a god for mulligans.

 

[Hussar]

RPGs are collaborations. The GM cannot decide it for them, but if it is to happen, the GM is the one who makes sure the possibility is present. If Kitiara isn't there, Sturm cannot die tragically on the wall fighting her.

Which brings up a point - tragedy is not always about making the wrong choices where better ones exist. It can also be about making the right choice, but having it end badly. Heroic sacrifices can serve a good purpose, and be the right choice, but still be tragic occurrences.

But, "tragic" and "tragedy" as in the genre fiction "tragedy" are not the same words. You're right that a heroic sacrifice can certainly be tragic, but, it's not fulfilling the genre definition of tragedy. That's what people keep confusing.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

That's ridiculous.

Every single thing in the game tells the player that they are going to go on adventures. Every single line of the PHB tells them that they are going on an adventure. Nothing in the game tells them that they should make a stay at home character that avoids adventure.

Not true. D&D is typically about adventures, but it certainly isn’t always about characters who wilfully choose a life of adventure. Last D&D game I was a player in, we were a bunch of stranded tourists.

Fantasy literature is full of reluctant heroes who were given no choice, and D&D often emulates that.

 

[Hussar]

Not true. D&D is typically about adventures, but it certainly isn’t always about characters who wilfully choose a life of adventure. Last D&D game I was a player in, we were a bunch of stranded tourists.

Fantasy literature is full of reluctant heroes who were given no choice, and D&D often emulates that.

Yes, but, you're not a new player are you?

You claimed that new players might not know that the game is meant to be about being adventurers. But, again, every single thing in the game TELLS them that this is what is expected of them. You played against type, fair enough. But, even a cursory reading of the PHB is going to tell players that they should not be "reluctant" heroes and D&D absolutely does not emulate reluctant heroes at all.

There is nothing reluctant about the level system. When you are rewarded fully for engaging in the game as a hero, that's very much not emulating "reluctant heroes". None of the published adventures even hint at the idea of being "reluctant heroes". None of the classes suggest it. Nothing in the game actually supports this.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

You claimed that new players might not know that the game is meant to be about being adventurers. But, again, every single thing in the game TELLS them that this is what is expected of them. You played against type, fair enough. But, even a cursory reading of the PHB is going to tell players that they should not be "reluctant" heroes and D&D absolutely does not emulate reluctant heroes at all

D&D does reluctant heroes just fine. I’m not sure why you think it doesn’t. “You meet in a tavern” isn’t compulsory you know - it isn’t even in the rules. Escaped prisoners, shipwrecked travellers, people whose village has been destroyed by monsters - all very common ways to start a D&D campaign.