D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

How long before this is the case for 5e and 5.5e? It would be quicker had wizbro not revoked piece meal purchases when the book of many things was introduced on ddb.
My guess is that piecemeal purchases were removed as a token to 3PPs to get them on to DNDB.

That's the whole dilemma with editions.

What's good for the consumer
Is not always good for the hobby/industry
And what's good for the producer is a whole third thing.
 

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Because I knew you meant it in the post 3e sense of the Core 3. But, in 1998, no one would have known what you meant when you said "core books" because the concept of "core books" didn't exist in D&D yet.
While the term "core rulebook" didn't exist, I think it's fairly safe to say that people were well aware that the PHB, DMG, and MM/MC were necessary for playing the game, as this excerpt from the PHB makes clear (at least it did to me):

phb1.png


Amusingly, it turns out that "Fear of the new edition!" is a much older phenomenon than I ever realized, as this was found a few pages earlier!

Fear.png
 

To be clear for myself it isn't about just playing or using the old editions. Yes, they are still out there. If I could find players to play AD&D I would play that, but I am happy enough with 5E. 2024 however went completely in the wrong direction for myself, in many facets.

So, it is about WotC developing material for the "new" 5E which I don't care for, and my purpose in ranting is so they understand there are potential customers out there (there are a lot of us IMO) who might buy something which incorporates our design preferences.

But WotC ignores us. If you like 3PP material, you have that. I don't. Most of it is either 1) retro clones or 2) in line with 2024 game design philosophy. I don't need a retro clone--I have the older editions, making retro clones seems (frankly) silly to me. Why reinvent the wheel??

Anyway, nothing is addressed to myself in particular, I am just throwing this out into the wind and see where it goes.
 

While the term "core rulebook" didn't exist, I think it's fairly safe to say that people were well aware that the PHB, DMG, and MM/MC were necessary for playing the game, as this excerpt from the PHB makes clear (at least it did to me):


Amusingly, it turns out that "Fear of the new edition!" is a much older phenomenon than I ever realized, as this was found a few pages earlier!
To be fair, none of the other books had been published yet. Again, we're talking about the specific term "Core Rulebooks". That is a term that didn't exist as it's meant now, before the 3e books were published. LIke I said, the Core Rules CD included the Tome of Magic and the Arms and Equipment Guide.

The idea was that if you were playing D&D, anything that wasn't specifically tied to a specific setting - as delineated by the trade dress - was core. Here's the opening lines from the 2e Complete Fighter's Handbook:

1743686314504.png

That doesn't really sound like a book that isn't part of the core set of rules. These aren't new rules - these are the rules they would have given you but ran out of space for in the PHB. Also, one should note the coding for these books - PHBR. As in Player's HandBook Reference. I've also seen it referred to as Player's HandBook Rules. Either way, that's not something that isn't part of the Player's Handbook.
 

But WotC ignores us. If you like 3PP material, you have that. I don't. Most of it is either 1) retro clones or 2) in line with 2024 game design philosophy. I don't need a retro clone--I have the older editions, making retro clones seems (frankly) silly to me. Why reinvent the wheel??
Yep, they ignore you, that is true. Presumably because there aren't enough of you willing to purchase enough material for WotC to warrant spending the time and money and manpower to produce it. Which of course is why they allow 3rd party producers to provide you material you all might want instead, but if you don't want 3PP... there's nothing they can do about that.

If you have come to terms with this reality and accept that you aren't going to be served going forward, then that is commendable. Unfortunately, some people have a harder time accepting they aren't the market being served anymore (See: the D&D Editions: Anybody Else Feel Like They Don't Fit In? thread.)
 

Yep, they ignore you, that is true. Presumably because there aren't enough of you willing to purchase enough material for WotC to warrant spending the time and money and manpower to produce it. Which of course is why they allow 3rd party producers to provide you material you all might want instead, but if you don't want 3PP... there's nothing they can do about that.
Well, here's the issue: if 3PP see a market, make material, and (presumably) make a profit on it, how is it WotC can't see that? I think there are a lot of us out there, but most have moved on because WotC ignored us. 🤷‍♂️ If WotC devoted a division to supporting prior editions and making new material for those editions, I think they would find the hobby grow even more. But, as you say, perhaps they've looked into it and just found the cost wouldn't be effective and allow the 3PP to fight over the scraps of prior editions...

If you have come to terms with this reality and accept that you aren't going to be served going forward, then that is commendable. Unfortunately, some people have a harder time accepting they aren't the market being served anymore (See: the D&D Editions: Anybody Else Feel Like They Don't Fit In? thread.)
I have for myself. I expect the game I am running now (5E) will be my last D&D campaign, at least for a while. Unless I get lucky enough to find people willing to play AD&D, I'm just out of luck. While I can live with 5E, it isn't my preference and playing it is like dieting 100% of the time. I'm surviving, and nourished, but it just doesn't taste as good as AD&D.

Of course, I realize much of that is the "longing for better days" of nostalgia, etc. Someday I might play AD&D again and not care for it--find it lacking, who knows?

Otherwise, there is the 5E alternative @DND_Reborn, @Smythe the Bard, and myself have been developing (albeit slowly) for a couple years now. Someday hopefully we'll finish it and it will be what I'll play moving forward. Time will tell. :)
 

Otherwise, there is the 5E alternative @DND_Reborn, @Smythe the Bard, and myself have been developing (albeit slowly) for a couple years now. Someday hopefully we'll finish it and it will be what I'll play moving forward. Time will tell. :)
At the end of the day... if a person has a very specific way they want their roleplaying game to be which cannot be satisfied by someone else's product... making it themselves is the best and most efficient way to do so.

Only downside of course is that the circle of players willing to play that highly specialized game might be even smaller. But really... all one needs is like 3 other people who are good with joining them on their journey so it is by no means insurmountable.
 


Yep, they ignore you, that is true. Presumably because there aren't enough of you willing to purchase enough material for WotC to warrant spending the time and money and manpower to produce it. Which of course is why they allow 3rd party producers to provide you material you all might want instead, but if you don't want 3PP... there's nothing they can do about that.

If you have come to terms with this reality and accept that you aren't going to be served going forward, then that is commendable. Unfortunately, some people have a harder time accepting they aren't the market being served anymore (See: the D&D Editions: Anybody Else Feel Like They Don't Fit In? thread.)
The real question, of course, is whether or not WotC is right in their analysis of where the market is. For comparison, look at Hollywood. Although the population of America is higher than it's ever been, and inflation has increased ticket prices over time, the box office is significantly down in recent years. Hollywood has clearly mistaken what their audience is and what they want, and are providing a product who's sales are significantly down year over year, with rapid degradation in the most recent years. The supply shock of the lockdowns no longer explains this, so the parsimonious solution is that the audience is smaller for what they're producing, because they're overestimating support for their product, and underestimating support for the products that were more like what they used to make. Either that or the entire theatrical experience is an outdated business model. Except that ratings for new streaming stuff are—mostly—underperforming too, and there are still exceptions like the Mario movie or the Top Gun movie that do very well in theaters.

If WotC is correct, then yeah, you're 100% correct. People left behind need to just accept the fact that they aren't part of the largest segment of the market anymore and therefore they won't be served by new WotC products very often. If they also don't accept 3PP products, then they're limiting themselves to not having any new product anymore. Crying about it online a lot will just annoy everyone around you at some point.

If WotC is incorrect, though, then either the market is fragmented, and the pluralities of tastes are significant enough that they need some kind of service, the largest plurality or even majority isn't as big as it used to be and therefore won't bring in as much revenue as it used to, or that they're not even chasing the right plurality or the majority, and people are only reluctantly accepting what they're producing when what they really want is more like what they used to produce. If this is true, then it does make sense to advocate for your tastes, because you believe that you are part of a significant underserved part of the market rather than simply a small niche underserved part of the market.

Either way, though, saying that you refuse to look at 3PPs seems like shooting yourself in the foot (using the generic you; this is more in response to the quote you're responding to than to yours.) I think the old paradigm that D&D is the market is likely to be over in the near future if it isn't already. More and more alternative brands of "D&D" are successfully finding a market, and even a pretty big market if a number of the kickstarters that are funding at very high levels is any guide. It's especially weird to say this while also saying that you don't understand the point of retroclones. Retroclones were designed specifically because the old stuff wasn't available, and people who didn't have them handy in good shape had a hard time getting their hands on them. Arguably now that's no longer true, but in the meantime, the retroclones got pretty well established, and most of them are better organized, better written, or fix a few issues that nobody much ever really liked back in the day. Most people who are playing old-style D&D (apparently) prefer playing retroclones rather than the old games.

In fact, the entire post you're responding to is just kind of weird. "Everyone should play exactly what I want to play, and if they want to play something else or use something else, I don't understand them and WotC should ignore them and just make what I want," is pretty much how it reads to me. Weird. Weird. To quote Rachel Zegler ironically.
 

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