D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[KYRON45]

When it came to TSR era books we treated everything as optional. Including the PHB and especially the DMG. There were some odd rules, inconsistencies and Gygax sometimes had odd advice. We still made it work somehow of course.

In my group the players moved on to 2e but i don't think our DM ever knew.

 

[ezo]

Can you be more specific? You've looked at "it"... what is "it" exactly? I thought you were talking about 3PP that were remakes of older systems (retroclones) or variations on 5e.2024... like here:

So, it begs the question: How are systems OP? Or are you now talking about player-facing options for... 5e? Something else? Are you reducing all options from all 3PP into a single "it" that you don't like?

Sorry, it's probably a reading comprehension thing on my end, but maybe I'm not the only one having trouble following and clarification might help your point.

Not without going back in time and finding all the 3PP sites and rule systems I've looked at for the past 6-8 years... I didn't really keep track of it and at this point I see no point in continuing what I imagine will be a futile search.

Every once in a while someone will post about something that I haven't heard of, and I'll check it out, and then move on. For example, I know a lot of people like C&C, Shadowdark, Kobold Press stuff, etc. and I've never found any of it that works for me. Don't get me wrong, some of it has a good thing here or there or something I'll yonk for my own stuff, but I am talking "as a whole" I am not happy with it.

Other 3PP stuff players have brought to me (from where? no clue.) which I reviewed before I would use (which was hardly never) was always OP for my taste, and sometimes ridiculously so. Of course, much of 2024 is OP for my taste, so that should give you a good baseline to judge from.

Anyway, so I still review new 3PP stuff from time to time, take what (if anything) I like from it, but never feel comfortable adopting it completely.

 

[ezo]

That's kind of absurd for multiple reasons. The first being that a sampling of some 3PP is indicative of all 3PP, the second being that most of the best and most popular 3PP stuff has always been made by literally the same designers who make the official stuff. As a side gig, the both write official products and also write unofficial products.

LOL I can only speak from my experience, but frankly speaking it isn't "absurd" thank you!

And since I am not happy with much of the stuff the official designers make for their main job, what makes you think I'd be happy with the stuff the put out on the side???

 

[Micah Sweet]

The text of the book is unfortunately rather silent on the issue, but the back cover isn't:
View attachment 401395

There's a difference between "can make a profit" and "can make enough profit to satisfy Hasbro execs." 3PPs can often produce things Wizards can't, because they have less overhead and don't have shareholders they need to satisfy.

This is why I feel you're more likely to get interesting material from 3pp and no less likely IMO to get bad material (by whatever metric you use).

 

[jayoungr]

It’s utterly baffling to me why people freak out about changes to the game. It’s your game. PLay what you want. Why the incessant need to pee in other people’s corn flakes constantly?

But nope. We must resist all changes with the fire of a thousand suns, spending years poisoning any attempt at compromise or live and let live.

I feel like you're contradicting yourself here. You say people should play what they want, but then you strongly imply that not being all on board with the latest changes is bad behavior.

 

[Desdichado]

There's a difference between "can make a profit" and "can make enough profit to satisfy Hasbro execs." 3PPs can often produce things Wizards can't, because they have less overhead and don't have shareholders they need to satisfy.

They also can't, because it seems that the inevitable result of corporatizing entertainment products is that they turn into soulless corporate slop designed by committee. They literally can't seem to produce anything other than that unless designers have a free hand without corporate interference in what they're designing.

Which used to be true at one point for WotC, but it seems like it isn't anymore.

 

[Incenjucar]

This is why I feel you're more likely to get interesting material from 3pp and no less likely IMO to get bad material (by whatever metric you use).

More or less like video games. Indies explore more freely but can't afford the same kinds of testing and polish as the corps, but corps can also spend a lot of money testing and polishing a product that never stops being riddled with flaws while still playing it very safe.

 

[rhythmsoundmotion]

To be fair, none of the other books had been published yet. Again, we're talking about the specific term "Core Rulebooks". That is a term that didn't exist as it's meant now, before the 3e books were published. LIke I said, the Core Rules CD included the Tome of Magic and the Arms and Equipment Guide.

The idea was that if you were playing D&D, anything that wasn't specifically tied to a specific setting - as delineated by the trade dress - was core. Here's the opening lines from the 2e Complete Fighter's Handbook:

View attachment 401376
That doesn't really sound like a book that isn't part of the core set of rules. These aren't new rules - these are the rules they would have given you but ran out of space for in the PHB. Also, one should note the coding for these books - PHBR. As in Player's HandBook Reference. I've also seen it referred to as Player's HandBook Rules. Either way, that's not something that isn't part of the Player's Handbook.

Technically, more than the bare minimum is optional (by how the english language works.)

 

[Desdichado]

I feel like you're contradicting yourself here. You say people should play what they want, but then you strongly imply that not being all on board with the latest changes is bad behavior.

I had the same thought and didn't get around to addressing that yet. That's a classic "the door swings both ways" kind of question. It's easy to be on the side of the producer, and liking what they're making now.

 

[Velderan]

The text of the book is unfortunately rather silent on the issue, but the back cover isn't:
View attachment 401395

The inside cover ads in the Player's Options line of products listed only the PHB and Character Record Sheet packs as being Fundamental for a Player. The DMG, MM, and DM Screen were the only Fundamental DM products, which generally aligns with how my group approached the game back then.