D&D General So what about the SRDs?

[Alzrius]

Actually, you can create those things (many have for 5e), you just can’t copy them verbatium from the 3.5 books or SRD

Which means that you're back to playing a guessing game of "this probably isn't infringing their copyrights...I hope" which an open license is supposed to avoid.

 

[Sacrosanct]

So, let's focus on this because it is kind of where I am having a disconnect. Since the text is different between, say, the 3.5 SRD and the 5.1 SRD, but there are similarly names things in them, I am curious how you get to being able to produce, say, a 3.5 monster book with the 5.1 SRD when there are concepts like Damage Reduction (just by way of example) that aren't in the 5.1 SRD. Is it simply an example of derivative works?

My question about "why do we need SRDs at all" was not meant in bad faith. It comes back to the above example -- where does the value of the SRD released under a license come in?

To give a more concrete example: Let's say i create a monster supplement compatible with 2024 5E. What is the difference (not asking for legal advice, of course) between me using the 3.5 SRD under OGL, the A5E SRD under ORC, the 5.1 SRD under CC, or no SRD at all and just not replicating ay text?

The way I understand it, and please someone correct me if I'm wrong, is that each SRD allows you to use thing in that SRD that you otherwise couldn't. These are things typically unique to that SRD that don't appear anywhere else.

That is, you don't need the 5.1 SRD to make a D&D compatible game. You do need the SRD to use the aboleth monster (since it's i the 5.1 SRD). You don't need a 5.5 SRD to have a trait that takes effect at 1/2 or fewer hit points. You do need the new 5.5 SRD (or a 4e SRD) to use the term "bloodied.", as I understand it. (this example is actually why I'm looking forward to the new SRD for B&B 2e).

Damage reduction is a pretty general concept. I don't think you need an SRD to use that term. Not sure what other terms there are in 3e that don't exist in 5e. Calling it a "prestige class" maybe?

 

[Reynard]

The way I understand it, and please someone correct me if I'm wrong, is that each SRD allows you to use thing in that SRD that you otherwise couldn't. These are things typically unique to that SRD that don't appear anywhere else.

That is, you don't need the 5.1 SRD to make a D&D compatible game. You do need the SRD to use the aboleth monster (since it's i the 5.1 SRD). You don't need a 5.5 SRD to have a trait that takes effect at 1/2 or fewer hit points. You do need the new 5.5 SRD (or a 4e SRD) to use the term "bloodied.", as I understand it. (this example is actually why I'm looking forward to the new SRD for B&B 2e).

Damage reduction is a pretty general concept. I don't think you need an SRD to use that term. Not sure what other terms there are in 3e that don't exist in 5e. Calling it a "prestige class" maybe?

I'm just not sure what the SRD and associated license actually protect against. If you can't copyright mechanics, and assuming you write your own text for any particular thing, what do you need any sort of permission for?

 

[Sacrosanct]

I'm just not sure what the SRD and associated license actually protect against. If you can't copyright mechanics, and assuming you write your own text for any particular thing, what do you need any sort of permission for?

Terminology. Presentation (trade dress). Proper names.

 

[Alzrius]

I'm just not sure what the SRD and associated license actually protect against. If you can't copyright mechanics, and assuming you write your own text for any particular thing, what do you need any sort of permission for?

Leaving aside the issue of using words which WotC invented (e.g. "tojanida"), the OGL is essentially WotC's pledge not to pursue litigation against you if you stick to the terms of the license, i.e. you can use anything in the SRD and not have to worry about being sued for copyright infringement.

The thing about "you can't copyright mechanics, only their artistic presentation" is that the practical implementation of that rule can be hard to parse. I attended a lecture on this very topic by an IP lawyer at Gen Con 2024, and he pointed out how you can't copyright f(x) = [(y-10)/2], but you could possibly copyright Table 1 on page eight of the 3.5 PHB, which lists out the results of that formula (which calculates ability score bonuses).

And that's what the OGL is really all about. Figuring out what's infringing copyright and what's not ultimately comes down to what a judge decides, and getting there can take years and cost a small fortune, because copyright law is complicated. The words "wizard," "potter," "boy," and "harry" are all in the dictionary, and can't be copyrighted by anyone, but if you write a story about Harry Potter the boy wizard, you're that much more likely to find yourself subject to a lawsuit, because a particular arrangement of non-copyrightable materials is something that can be itself copyrighted.

The OGL was WotC saying "we'll let you use all of this stuff in the SRD, and won't sue you so long as you follow the few restrictions in this license," dispelling the fear, uncertainty, and doubt that kept people from undertaking what might have been non-infringing uses of copyright to begin with. And it worked very well for over twenty years before WotC destroyed that goodwill for no good reason.

 

[Reynard]

Terminology. Presentation (trade dress). Proper names.

Terminology seems a little sus. Can I not use "damage reduction" in any game not referencing the 3.5 SRD via the OGL.

The SRD has nothing at all to do with trade dress.

That WotC released proper names in the SRD is an unforced error, to be sure.

 

[Reynard]

The thing about "you can't copyright mechanics, only their artistic presentation" is that the practical implementation of that rule can be hard to parse. I attended a lecture on this very topic by an IP lawyer at Gen Con 2024, and he pointed out how you can't copyright f(x) = [(y-10)/2], but you could possibly copyright Table 1 on page eight of the 3.5 PHB, which lists out the results of that formula (which calculates ability score bonuses).

I would be very interested in seeing the legal argument for this work itself out in a court.

 

[mamba]

My question about "why do we need SRDs at all" was not meant in bad faith. It comes back to the above example -- where does the value of the SRD released under a license come in?

to me it's twofold, 1) you can copy text verbatim, 2) you do not have to worry about whether something you design is too close to something that WotC could defend in court, like using chromatic and metallic dragons

Do you need a SRD to write adventures, no. Classes, subclasses and monsters, might depend, having an SRD takes that uncertainty away (provided you stick to what is in the SRD and do not try to replicate things outside of it)

 

[mamba]

I would be very interested in seeing the legal argument for this work itself out in a court.

Let's take e.g. the XP progression table, does that fall under copyright? You are not rephrasing it in your own words, you are copying it outright, so potentially it would. If you can reverse engineer a formula that arrives at the same progression, I assume you can use that formula in your book, as that no longer is you copying things

 

[Staffan]

Let's take e.g. the XP progression table, does that fall under copyright? You are not rephrasing it in your own words, you are copying it outright, so potentially it would. If you can reverse engineer a formula that arrives at the same progression, I assume you can use that formula in your book, as that no longer is you copying things

3e used a formula for XP progression (n*1000 XP to go from level n to n+1, which then leads to a table of pyramidal sums for total XP needed), but neither the formula nor the resultant table was ever included in the SRD. Nor were XP rewards or wealth-by-level numbers, or for that matter the procedure for generating a character (check with your GM, roll/assign stats, choose race, choose class, etc.). You can make an OGL product where you come up with those yourself, but you can't copy the ones from the PHB because they aren't in the SRD. That's why Pathfinder 1e is different from 3.5e in this regard. Back when there was an actual d20 System Trademark License, it also specifically forbade you from including that stuff if you wanted to use the d20 logo.