D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[James Gasik]

The first RPG I ever encountered was 2nd ed D&D. Up to that point, my experiences with RPGs, or RPG-adjacent material was Milton Bradley's HeroQuest and NES games like Dragon Warrior and Final Fantasy. THAC0 was weird and obtuse to me then. Wow did WFRP 1E and World of Darkness RPGs made a hell of a lot more sense in just about every way. You can guess which games dominated the 90s to me and my friends.

Even Robotech (Palladium) was more intuitive to me LOL

I think the first game I played with ascending AC (well, physical defense) was FASA's Earthdawn, and it was glorious.

 

[James Gasik]

It's a game terminology, and we used it for literally decades without any issue. No one I knew had issue with it, but I imagine they are out there.

It was based on the systems people knew at the time, so it worked for them. Otherwise, they wouldn't have done it.

---

Anyway...

I missed the THAC0 the Clown thread, never bothered with the book he came from, so didn't even know about him until this thread.

No, not funny at all. Pretty insulting, actually. Shame WotC, shame on you. This is clearly mocking and meant to be so. WotC gets knocked down another peg IMO.

THAC0 was a system and there was nothing wrong with it. It worked. For many years. Ascending AC is another system, and it works as well. And guess what? People STILL have issues with Ascending AC. Of course some people had issues with THAC0, claiming otherwise is completely delusional, but Ascending AC isn't better, isn't worse, it is just different.

Wait. People have issues with ascending AC? Does not compute.

 

[AlViking]

It's a game terminology, and we used it for literally decades without any issue. No one I knew had issue with it, but I imagine they are out there.

It was based on the systems people knew at the time, so it worked for them. Otherwise, they wouldn't have done it.

---

Anyway...

I missed the THAC0 the Clown thread, never bothered with the book he came from, so didn't even know about him until this thread.

No, not funny at all. Pretty insulting, actually. Shame WotC, shame on you. This is clearly mocking and meant to be so. WotC gets knocked down another peg IMO.

THAC0 was a system and there was nothing wrong with it. It worked. For many years. Ascending AC is another system, and it works as well. And guess what? People STILL have issues with Ascending AC. Of course some people had issues with THAC0, claiming otherwise is completely delusional, but Ascending AC isn't better, isn't worse, it is just different.

I have no issue with some additional complexity in rules if it serves a purpose. The problem with THAC0 is that there was significant additional complexity with no added value.

It's also pretty condescending to say since you personally didn't have a problem with it there was no downside. People used to have to wash their clothes by hand with a tub and washboard because there was no other option. So I guess a modern washing machine isn't really better or a labor saving device, it's just different.

 

[Bae'zel]

Wait. People have issues with ascending AC? Does not compute.

You'd be surprised.

I once witnessed a heated debate between proponents of d100 roll-under vs. d100 roll-high. It was interesting.

 

[FrozenNorth]

That just tells me that a game that prominently features gold for XP simply isn't for you and your players. Nothing wrong with that, but nothing more than that.

Fortunately, modern D&D does not use XP for GP as a mechanic.

The point I’m making is that the people claiming « modern D&D doesn’t cater to all playstyles » are conveniently forgetting that neither did older D&D.

 

[TiQuinn]

Fortunately, modern D&D does not use XP for GP as a mechanic.

The point I’m making is that the people claiming « modern D&D doesn’t cater to all playstyles » are conveniently forgetting that neither did older D&D.

I agree, they are two separate games with two different modes of play. There are similarities but the game balance and the motivations for players are different. It’s why I don’t try to force 5e into a 1e paradigm or vice versa. It allows me to enjoy each game for what it is.

 

[The Firebird]

I never really though there was anything "silly" about it really because it works the same way.

"+" does not mean "add", it means improve. Plate mail armor is AC 3 (3rd armor class), so Plate mail armor +2 is improved by two classes... to AC 1, the 1st armor class.

I felt it was easier if you just didn't think about the "+", the sign, too much. If in universe the modifier makes you better, it makes you better. If worse, it makes you worse. Trying to think it through as "a THACO of 15 with a plus three sword means 15 + (-3) or 15 - (+3) or whatever just confuses things.

 

[FrozenNorth]

Thanks for the specifics. I don't think the point made in Hussar's post is accurate because of the claim "that is all it takes to make someone feel unwelcome in the hobby". The clown discussion, in my reading, considered it one of many factors contributing; not a particularly big one on its own, but representative in context.

Appreciate the citation.

The specific criticism that was made was that there is a history of people, including WotC, treating grognards poorly.

I don't think the text about the clown is that bad. But I think folks who saw themselves in it did so because there is a history of people, including WotC, treating them as such. As the end of this post nicely illustrates.

When pressed for examples of WotC treating grognards poorly (an extraordinary claim as the 5e designers are grognards themselves), only two examples were given:

• THAC0 the clown in Witchlight;
• the gnome in 4e introduction videos.

THAT is why @Hussar writes:

A group of gamers feels put upon because of a single NPC in a module that is obviously meant as a joke. Apparently that is all it takes to make someone feel unwelcome in the hobby.

Naturally, the complaints ignore all the Easter eggs included for older gamers in 5e products, from Warduke in Witchlight, to the D&D cartoon in the PHB2024 and DMG2024.

 

[AnotherGuy]

Naturally, the complaints ignore all the Easter eggs included for older gamers in 5e products, from Warduke in Witchlight, to the D&D cartoon in the PHB2024 and DMG2024.

That is a good point!

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You'd be surprised.

I once witnessed a heated debate between proponents of d100 roll-under vs. d100 roll-high. It was interesting.

Yeah, I used to be in the "no roll under" camp myself, but I eventually realized it was such small potatoes nonsense, so long as the game is completely consistent in gameplay - i.e. whenever you're rolling a d100 you're looking for as low as possible.

That one only really becomes a problem if it's inconsistent, i.e. sometimes you're doing roll-under, sometimes roll-over, in the same game (or you're switching between two games with opposite approaches).

I don't think anyone really has a problem with ascending AC in the same sense as THAC0 (where it's literally harder for the human brain to deal with), but I can imagine situations where it was introduced without making other systems consistent with it where it might have been confusing (particularly earlier OSR games).