D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

[MuhVerisimilitude]

A +2 AC Bonus meant you subtracted two from the armor class, so a Chainmail (normally AC 5) with a +2 bonus (how it was written in stat blocks) would have AC 3.

And a -2 Penalty to AC is in fact added to the AC.

And things like thief skills are in fact ascending so the system isn't even consistent with itself.

 

[The Firebird]

I dunno if you messed something up but I'm not seeing any quote about hating grognards there.

The rest it looks like maybe you're trying to quote responses to someone who maybe I have on ignore - either that or I'm not getting it.

I do think the quote button maybe have been overloaded by whatever you're doing lol.

It works for me. Post IDs are #504 and #574 for the grognard claims; #597, #705, and #713 for the lore; #496 and #543 for the broader context. You can check my post history if you want more context.

I'm not really sure how the ignore feature works, but I imagine that could cause you or FrozenNorth to be missing pieces of the discussion. If you can't see those posts, I hope you'll take my word for it that these other claims were raised.

 

[Willie the Duck]

I dunno if you messed something up but I'm not seeing any quote about hating grognards there.

For reference, it is from Jason Tondro.'s 'It never occurred to me l’d rouse the ire of the grognards. It’s obvious now that I look back on it, but I just don’t take those critiques seriously even now. I consider those people not worth listening to, so I didn’t anticipate their “outrage". He does state 'those people' with 'the grognards' as the antecedent. However, within context, it is those grognards who had problems with his acknowledging misogyny from self-described misogynist Gary Gygax. Tondro undoubtedly could have taken more time to clarify their position. At the same time, taking that as a dig against oneself seems like an own-goal. Certainly whether that is evidence of WotC being dismissive of grognards in totality is something that I don't think has been established, so much as could be a reasonable subject for debate.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

However, within context, it is those grognards who had problems with his acknowledging misogyny from self-described misogynist Gary Gygax.

Yeah that seems obvious.

At the same time, taking that as a dig against oneself seems like an own-goal.

Right? It's like if I said "People who kick puppies are scum" and someone came up to me and was like "Ok I've never kicked a puppy myself but I don't think it's right for you to say that!" and like uhhhhhhh.

 

[ezo]

A +2 AC Bonus meant you subtracted two from the armor class, so a Chainmail (normally AC 5) with a +2 bonus (how it was written in stat blocks) would have AC 3.

No, it meant you improved your Armor "Class" from 5th class to 3rd class, AC 3.

And a -2 Penalty to AC is in fact added to the AC.

No, a -2 penalty worsened your AC by two classes. So, Plate mail -2 would be two classes worse than normal Plate mail. Thus AC 3 becomes AC 5--going from 3rd class to 5th class.



(To be clear, obviously that is the way the "math" works, adding when you have a penalty, and subtracting for a bonus, when it comes to armor--I'm simply pointing out the logic based on the war games on which the system was based and they were already knew well.)

 

[AnotherGuy]

What this hobby could really use is a Hug a Grognard Day

 

[The Sigil]

I have always thought you subtracted the AC from the THAC0 thus getting the goal number for the roll. The bonuses (usually not being that impressive) only need to be considered if you failed but got really close.

So this seems to speak to the assumption that everyone "back in the day" knew what "number" they were aiming for on the d20 roll after applying math.

That wasn't the way it worked in most groups I played with at all - the conversation generally went something like the below:

1. Player rolls a d20. Let us assume for the sake of argument a "15" was rolled (situational modifiers like called shots could come into play at this point as they do in modern games).
2. Player consults his character sheet with his "base" precalculated THAC0. Let us say for the sake of argument his THAC0 was 19 (first level character).
3. Player does the math of subtracting "roll result" from "THAC0" (in this case, the math operation is 19-15).
4. Player announces, "I hit Armor Class 4" (implied: or worse)
5. DM compares the announced Armor Class hit with the target AC. If the target AC is equal to or higher than the number announced, the DM responds "that's a hit/miss"

Compare to modern games:

1. Player rolls a d20. Situational modifiers can come into play at this point as they did in step 1 before.
2. Player adds all "permanent" modifiers to his roll (probably pre-calculated with BAB/Proficiency, Attribute Bonus, etc.). For the sake of similarity, let us assume these are "0."
3. Player announces "I rolled a 15" (or if you prefer, "I hit Armor Class 15 or worse")
4. DM compares the announced Armor Class with the target AC. If the roll is equal to or higher than the Target AC, the DM responds, "that's a hit/miss."

There IS an extra step in THAC0 (subtracting the rolled result from THAC0) but IMO subtraction is a fairly trivial mathematical operation (YMMV), so I will cede it is "more complex" but I wouldn't call it "much more complex."

The difference is in the DM comparison step wherein the DM compares "which number is higher" - in THAC0 systems, if the AC is higher it's a hit, in d20 systems, if the roll is higher it's a hit. But as mentioned upstream, this is essentially the same operation ("comparison") and once you learn which way to compare, either system makes sense.

 

[TiQuinn]

No, it meant you improved your Armor "Class" from 5th class to 3rd class, AC 3.

But the result with the math is a subtraction. 5 vs. 3.

Also, and not that it really matters, AD&D did not phrase AC as "5th Class" or "3rd Class" and if you think it was otherwise, I'll be happy for the page number of whichever book.

 

[Bae'zel]

I dunno, roll a die (higher number is a better result), add bonuses (higher bonus is a better bonus), vs. AC value (higher AC is a better defence) requires fewer mental steps, I think.

 

[KYRON45]

Thac0 was retired…the anti-Thac0nians won.