D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

As @Faolyn points out it's mostly when modifiers become involved that it gets a bit confusing, but usually this is due to the modifiers being badly done by a designer who didn't think about it hard enough in terms of expressing them,
Also, editors not paying attention to the difference between multiple writers and not insisting on a single style. I think that nowadays, there might be more emphasis on style guides requiring bonuses and penalties being written in a specific way.
 

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It's a game terminology, and we used it for literally decades without any issue. No one I knew had issue with it, but I imagine they are out there. 🤷‍♂️

It was based on the systems people knew at the time, so it worked for them. Otherwise, they wouldn't have done it. ;)

[
Oh as did I and many others. I’d never once heard anyone try to claim that “+” didn’t actually mean add though. That is a new one.

Funnily enough it actually wasn’t based on the systems people knew since only DnD actually did this. Literally no other rpg did this.
 


Also, editors not paying attention to the difference between multiple writers and not insisting on a single style. I think that nowadays, there might be more emphasis on style guides requiring bonuses and penalties being written in a specific way.
So much this.

They clearly had no unified idea of what 2e was supposed to be and outsourced much of it to freelancers who were allowed to their own devices. The PHBR line (aka brown books) are a great example of how little guidance their designers/freelancers had. Specialty priests are another example.
 

IME when using roll-under it's either a d% roll (e.g. Thief skills) where either

a) the player doesn't know any bonuses or penalties that might be applied due to current in-fiction conditions etc. (e.g. the DM might decide the rain-slick stones make climbing 10% harder, the rain-slickness will have been narrated but the specific penalty won't be) or
b) the DM has noted the target might be different than usual e.g. instead of "Roll under your Dex to cross this slippery bridge" it might be "Roll way under your Dex" or "Roll under half your Dex".
This depends on the table. Plenty of GMs will tell you if you have a penalty to the roll. Plus, well, in a roll-under game, if you know you have to roll under a 15, and you roll a 13 and that's a fail, then you also know you had at least a -2 penalty. If that happens enough times, you learn "rain-slick" equals -2. Or -10%; either way.

It depends on what the system's being used for, I think, and just how much of it you want to have be affected by the character's level.

For me, some things like the ability to notice something are almost intrinsic to the character and don't change with level: a 10th-level Fighter has about the same chance to notice something as a 1st-level Fighter. (exception: Thief-types who specifically get trained in such things, as reflected by their increasing skills as their levels advance)
Meh, this is a "your mileage may vary" kind of thing. One could easily say that adventurers become more aware of what to look out for--what that faint rustle in the trees or slight movement of shadow or that look between those people mean--as they level up, so it makes total sense for a perception score to increase.

That, and at least the games I'm used to don't use straight 3d6 for stat generation but instead use somethng more generous as per either the 1e or 2e DMG (or similar).
Right, but that's your table. You have to realize that your games are apparently quite different than others. I've looked at plenty of OSR games that not only demand 3d6 in order, but if you rolled a sufficiently high number, like a 15 or higher, then your next stat must be rolled on 2d6. So if that's your exposure to roll-under systems, and your character's stats are designed to be very low, then it becomes unfun to fail all the time.

I personally think that's a dumb way to design the game, because you can very easily just give penalties to certain tasks which do the same thing, while at the same time allowing characters to succeed at less-difficult tasks and therefore feel like they are actually accomplishing something.

And if someone does have a 6 in a stat then failing rolls related to that stat should be de rigeur. :)
But even if that's an accident of bad luck--like you have a 4d6-drop-lowest-and-assign-as-desired and managed to roll terribly--then for many people it becomes unfun. You may find it great. I may find it great, depending on circumstances. But if you want to know why others don't find it great, well, that's a reason why. I have a player who consistently rolls terribly for damage, and it causes her to check out after a while. She doesn't find it fun to nickle-and-dime her opponents to death.

This is especially true if it prevents the player from running their PC the way they want to. Like, in the 5e game I'm in, Int is my rogue's dump stat (it's a 10, which actually isn't bad, but it means no stat bonus). I didn't put my Expertise in any Int-based skills--such as Investigation, which is needed to find traps and thus is important for a typical thief. But I'm using the swashbuckler archetype, so it doesn't upset me if I fail a roll to find traps (or to know something about history or arcana or religion or nature); I'm only a rogue because swashbuckler is a rogue archetype (and for that sweet, sweet sneak attack damage). Actually, one of the most fun moments in the game was due to a failed roll to find traps.

But for someone who wanted to play more traditional thief-type rogue who was good at finding traps, then in a roll-under game where finding traps was based on Int, and the rules made them put a bad roll in Int, it wouldn't be fun.

I'm not sold on the idea that "people like big numbers" when the game tells them that in some cases lower is better.
It's not what the game tells them. It's what their brains tell them. In most non-RPGs, you want a higher number of points. There's relatively few games where you want a lower one. And D&D is many things, but it's not golf.

Consistency of terminology is good as long as the context is also consistent. In 1e, context is everything: if you're talking about a weapon then +3 means a higher number while if you're talking about armour +3 means a lower number.
It could also be written as -3 bonus (where negative numbers are consistently written as bonuses), or something like "bonus of 3" or even "bonus-3", with a note in the beginning saying what that actually means. Like how in many PbtA games, you'll see "hold-2", which is shorthand for "you get to do two things from the following list."
 

So much this.

They clearly had no unified idea of what 2e was supposed to be and outsourced much of it to freelancers who were allowed to their own devices. The PHBR line (aka brown books) are a great example of how little guidance their designers/freelancers had. Specialty priests are another example.
Definitely. And all those kits back then. I think that every time they tried to balance them, their word processors exploded, so they just gave up.
 

I have. See my previous posts.
I'm not @FrozenNorth but...

It works for me. Post IDs are #504 and #574 for the grognard claims; #597, #705, and #713 for the lore; #496 and #543 for the broader context. You can check my post history if you want more context.

Your citations are lacking - provide sources, perhaps even links. What you mostly have provided are short, unattributed "quotes" which may or may not be just your paraphrasing but... we can't tell without some way to read the original source.

#504 and #574 - reference Tondro's quote. See #903, which provides enough context so anyone can find the original quote. That's the kind of thing that is helpful here.

#597 and #713 - you provide a snippet of a quote but not the source. When I search these quotes, the D&D results only include... your posts here on ENWorld.
Are you paraphrasing or is there somewhere we can actually see who penned the words so we can gather context?
#705 - seems to just be your own words not a citation of other sources.

#496 - I guess this comes close as you are replying - and so perhaps citing - a specific poster here on ENWorld.
#543 - an expression of your opinion is not really a citation
 

This little sidebar about THAC0 is such a perfect encapsulation of the OP’s rant.

Argument: Ascending or descending AC isn’t better or worse, just different.

Argument for descending AC: people played with have no problem with it.

Argument for ascending AC: multiple studies showing that adding is easier for people than subtraction.
  • the fact that no other rpg at the time used descending AC. Every other game designer abandoned it.
  • the fact that no game published in the last twenty years uses descending AC.
  • the fact that even the OSR, the stewards of old school play have universally rejected descending AC.

But yes, apparently these two things are equal. :erm:

And people wonder why gaming discussions with conservative gamers is so infuriating?
 
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So much this.

They clearly had no unified idea of what 2e was supposed to be and outsourced much of it to freelancers who were allowed to their own devices. The PHBR line (aka brown books) are a great example of how little guidance their designers/freelancers had. Specialty priests are another example.
All awesome things. In this case, not having a unified vision really helped bring different styles and points of view to the voluminous content.
 

As I noted.


View attachment 401976
And yet they were classes (or category as he also uses) of protection. That was the problem because most people (I suppose?) didn't understand that. Chain mail +1 for example did not mean "AC 5 + 1", it was an abbreviation for AC 5 + 1 category better, or AC 4.

ACs in 1E were not "numbers" for you to "add +1" or "subtract -1".

You suppose correctly. It’s why they did away with it in favor of something clearer.
 

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