D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Yeah, see, with most of the people I've gamed with, creating the background ahead of time is the only way to make your character, and it's coming into the game without even the most basic idea of what you want that's the cardinal sin.

And it's probably why so many people like point-buy instead of random chargen. They can be guaranteed to have the stats they want, even if none of them are especially high or low.
Again, this is why there are different tables and different games that cater to different preferences. Neither of you are wrong. Your styles (and presumably those of your players) and just seemingly incompatible.
 

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Yeah, but not for the reason you may be implying, because, in the example you give, you're kind of like a carpenter trying to remove a screw with a claw hammer, and getting mad at the wood when it doesn't go well.

In the sense of the OP, "conservative" positions (and many others - but this thread is about "conservative" positions) are primarily matters of taste and feelings. And you're confronting them with facts and logic as if that's a good approach for addressing emotional positions.

I am not sure that the resulting frustration is their fault. Folks like things. They should be allowed to like things. There's not a lot of value in logically assailing them with reasons why the things they like are badwrongfun.
If people would stick to “stuff I like” then there would be no argument. Not a whole lot to argue about if you like something.

But it’s very often taken the next step. “Stuff I like is better than what you like”. “I like this because it’s better”. The qualitative judgement that very often accompanies “stuff I like”.

And if we cannot refute that with facts because they “like” it then there is absolutely no point in discussing anything. Simply claiming “I like this” shuts down all discussion.

Liking stuff is fine. Zero issues with that. Claiming quality - this thing I like is better - and then refusing to accept any actual facts as to why it might not actually be better is the epitome of stupidity. It’s dogmatic belief without any grounding in facts. It’s flat earther territory.
 

If people would stick to “stuff I like” then there would be no argument. Not a whole lot to argue about if you like something.

But it’s very often taken the next step. “Stuff I like is better than what you like”. “I like this because it’s better”. The qualitative judgement that very often accompanies “stuff I like”.

I can deal with “I like this game but not that game” when the reasoning is mechanics or experience.

What I tire of is using game preference as a proxy for social commentary, and then refusing to stay out of forums and spaces set up for the game they don’t like.
 






Okay, so here's the thing. Whether or not THAC0 and descending AC are hard or difficult or even complicated is a matter of personal experience. That's different from an opinion; that these systems may have been simple and easy for Amy but difficult and complex for Beth is, in both cases, completely factual. Does that say more about the players than it does the systems? Maybe, possibly not. I think anyone blaming Beth and telling her to get better, to just figure out, it's not that difficult, would be, very rightfully, accused of gatekeeping at worst, and just kind of being a jerk at best. But it's also true that different people have different natural and practiced skill in quantitative reasoning (and even in very different types of math), and it is certainly true that the more intuitive a mathematical system is, the less the "skill gap", for lack of a better term, gets in the way of actual understanding.

Here's a thing I would like to think most of us would agree with: BAB and ascending AC is a more intuitive set of systems than THAC0 and descending AC, especially given both systems were roll-over, not roll-under. While it's certainly possible to have had a different experience, I would also like to think that we could at least agree that this would be an unusual or at least fairly rare experience. I mean, I certainly have my own personal processes that I'm so used to and more comfortable with regardless of the existence of simpler, more intuitive processes.

I mean, I grew up with THAC0 and descending AC; I figured it out and used it because that's all there was. When I first read 3.0 and saw how they changed it my initial reaction was "Why get of THAC0?" and my immediate follow-up reaction was "wait, no, this actually just makes way more sense". But that's not going to be a universal experience.
 


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