D&D General [rant]The conservatism of D&D fans is exhausting.

Depends on what you mean by restricted, but my point is that 3e/5e style multiclassing (stacking levels of multiple classes and gain the features of said class) does not allow for dead levels in design because any class with large amounts of dead levels will be seen as a signpost to drop the class a go on to another. For example, the 3.0 ranger has four dead levels between level 1 (which has a major drop of features) and level 5 (where spellcasting and second favored enemy goes live). Those four dead levels do give you stuff (BAB, HP, skill points) but you can get most or all that stuff by being a barbarian and fighter AND get the abilities of both of those classes (rage, bonus feats) rather than those dead levels. 5e tries to solve this by forcing you to give up far more stuff than those for dead levels. The cost is that you have more stuff to worry about. But as long as you stack that ranger and fighter (or barbarian, or both), you will always encourage people to jump classes.

You can put all manner of barriers in the way, but I tend to find that as long as there is a viable path, someone is going to take it. No amount of time, training, XP penalty, or other restriction will dissuade it unless it is so character crushing it is a trap build (and then, that's the same as banning it but with extra work). So the only way is to handle multi-classing differently than 3e/5e currently does. You could go with a 4e or pathfinder system where you could use a feat to poach a specific or limited class feature or something to that nature, or even a gestalt/AD&D style advance in two classes system (though that has its own issues).

4E is still a problem. You're just replacing a 3.X fixed feature for a floating one (which ramps up complexity).

Does fix 3.0 ranger problem though. Here's my fighter 1 ir 2, ranger 1, Barbarian 1, bard 2, hexblade 2, cleric 2 type builds (they were mostly theoretical but still).

My nostalgia for 3E is mostly for the fluff and concepts (eg prestige classes).
 

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This is something that has bugged myself and most of those I have played with regularly for a long time now. The shift from actually playing the character in the adventure being the "fun part" to the "give me more when I level" fun part.

I think getting some more options when you level up makes playing your character more fun.
These aren't mutually exclusive.
 



I think getting some more options when you level up makes playing your character more fun.
These aren't mutually exclusive.
Sure, but not every, single, level.... otherwise most players IME forget about things their PC's gained. In which case, what is the point?

I remember a while ago it was posted how a 7th level wood-elf ranger had something like 25+ "features"---that is CRAZY IMO. A PC at 20th level can expect to have 40 or more, not to mention spells IIRC.

Wood Elf: - 7 features (traits)
Darkvision, Keen Senses, Fey Ancestry, Trance, Elf Weapon Training, Fleet of Foot, Mask of the Wild

Background: - 3
Skills, Languages/Tools, Background feature

Ranger: - 23 (including spells)
Armor proficiencies
Weapon proficiences
Skills
Saving throws
Hit Dice
Proficiency bonus
Favored Enemy
Natural Explorer
Fighting Style
Spellcasting (5 spells)
Gloom Stalker Magic
Dread Ambusher
Umbral Sight
Primeval Awareness
Feat
Extra Attack
Favored Enemy improvement
Natural Explorer improvement
Iron Mind

Not to mention information on weapons, equipment, and any magical items...

While some of these "features" are static or fairly simple to track, it is still a lot of information. And 5E was supposed to be "simple".
 

Sure, but not every, single, level.... otherwise most players IME forget about things their PC's gained. In which case, what is the point?

I remember a while ago it was posted how a 7th level wood-elf ranger had something like 25+ "features"---that is CRAZY IMO. A PC at 20th level can expect to have 40 or more, not to mention spells IIRC.

Wood Elf: - 7 features (traits)
Darkvision, Keen Senses, Fey Ancestry, Trance, Elf Weapon Training, Fleet of Foot, Mask of the Wild

Background: - 3
Skills, Languages/Tools, Background feature

Ranger: - 23 (including spells)
Armor proficiencies
Weapon proficiences
Skills
Saving throws
Hit Dice
Proficiency bonus
Favored Enemy
Natural Explorer
Fighting Style
Spellcasting (5 spells)
Gloom Stalker Magic
Dread Ambusher
Umbral Sight
Primeval Awareness
Feat
Extra Attack
Favored Enemy improvement
Natural Explorer improvement
Iron Mind

Not to mention information on weapons, equipment, and any magical items...

While some of these "features" are static or fairly simple to track, it is still a lot of information. And 5E was supposed to be "simple".

None of this has anything to do with enjoying roleplay or not.
I haven't seen a shift away from roleplaying your character being the fun part.
 


The problem with treats is complexity and balance, as the more you stack on to a class, the more you end up having to keep track of. If you're the kind of player who can keep all those options open and be aware of your abilities, that's great, but if you're not then it can be overwhelming.

Personally, I would like something between the 5e era "a new toy every level" and AD&D barren wilderness of class abilities. But I don't know what that exactly looks like and the only way it works is if open multiclassing dies.
I hadn’t thought of this before but maybe this is why I like to play wizards. Starting at 4th level, each even level is either an ASI/Feat or a class/subclass feature - and each odd level (until level 19) is a “dead” level where they don’t gain any special abilities. For some reason, for me, gaining spells =/= gaining abilities. In that sense, wizards are simpler and I think other classes could be tweaked to mirror this to some extent.
 

I hadn’t thought of this before but maybe this is why I like to play wizards. Starting at 4th level, each even level is either an ASI/Feat or a class/subclass feature - and each odd level (until level 19) is a “dead” level where they don’t gain any special abilities. For some reason, for me, gaining spells =/= gaining abilities. In that sense, wizards are simpler and I think other classes could be tweaked to mirror this to some extent.
I think that's because spells are part of a unified subsystem.

Classes without access to spells tend to have their abilities here and there with no rhyme or reason to their placement. Some abilities might be feats, some might be class abilities etc. etc.

This is, I think, why all classes should have their active abilities as part of a system.
 

Would they?

Learning to drive a stick shift is necessarily harder than learning to drive an automatic. Yet the cars of today are much, MUCH more complicated than they were ~70 years ago when essentially all cars were automatic.
I think you meant to say "...when essentially all cars were stick shift" at the end there. :)

Cars today are much more complicated under the hood, no argument there. Impressively little of that added complication translates to the driver experience, however, which if anything is considerably less complicated than back in the day.
Does this increased back-end complexity of automatic shift cars mean people would reject buying a car?

Because that's the issue here. Modern D&D makes the initial hurdle less complex. But the race is now somewhat longer.
There's the disagreement: modern D&D still makes that initial hurdle just as complex, only that complexity has been somewhat shifted from in-play complexity to char-gen or char-build complexity.
 

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